F800GS - More Problems with mine, lets hear about yours....

[R75/5]

Well Jim, modern times, I guess.
With the old iron-sides you got with the wiring diagram, a bit of patience and a multimeter pretty far.
Not so with CAN-bus.

Originally Posted by JRWooden

Thank you R75/5!
I'd still like to understand why the loads we are applying to the GPS output somehow confuse it and make it stay HOT instead of powering off.....

So would I. But except anecdotal or empirical evidence there will be no answers, period: The only handful of people who really know why this power source switches like it does are those few folks who layed their hand on the actual design specifications and the embedded software programmer who wrote that part of the firmware. Everyone else, dealers and mechanics included, will just spout what they have been told or hearsay. I actually have more problems coping with that type of design philosophy than with many other of the more practical quirks of the bike. But those who think that this will remain in the very near future purely a BMW problem haven't seen anything yet... Anyone who bothered to cast a casual glance over the automobile industry, the japanese brands included, clearly sees the writing on the wall. Anyway, good luck with your nuevi.

[DockingPilot]

Mine always shuts off. As far as I know. I dont have connected to the BMW plug though if that matters.
276c.

[Adv Grifter]

Originally Posted by R75/5

I would be really interested if you can back up this statement. Heard that from the friend of friend over a beer or from any reliable source? Seriously.

This comes from someone well placed in the BMW hierarchy, close to corporate goings on. (and a huge BMW fan) I will double check with him and ask for sources within BMW to confirm.

I find it hard to believe BMW would do this after spending years developing the system. On many large BMW's the CANbus system uses 3 computers to operate, so perhaps it's a cost thing? Dunno.

[WoodWorks]

Originally Posted by DockingPilot

Mine always shuts off. As far as I know. I dont have connected to the BMW plug though if that matters.
276c.

I've got the same GPS (Garmin GPSmap 276C), but mine IS wired up to the BMW socket under the faux tank. It has never failed to shut off when it's supposed to.

Knock wood.

David

[sospelotudo]

Originally Posted by RicH2

Hey uhhhh....master mechanic....might want to cover up those intakes when working on your bike.....especially in the dirt.

Yes, next time remove your shoes and place your socks in the intake runners...?

[sospelotudo]

Originally Posted by JRWooden

The GPS cord I wired in has a 12 VDC to 5 VDC converter brick in the middle of it which also "presents" some electronics to the GPS power circuit...
...Might this "circuit" confusion also mean my ZFE is staying awake?

Any thoughts?

Is there a place where non-employees can read these bullitens?

THANKS sorry to ramble on.......
Jim

I have seen those step-down transformers cause that problem first-hand. As for the bulletins, I don't think you can obtain them unless they are a NHTS recall.

[sospelotudo]

Let me spout my hearsay. I have seen those step-down transformers keep the ZFE awake, firsthand. I am of the schematically unproven, but technically apparent, opinion that the residual remaining in the transformer makes the ZFE think a charger is plugged in: another reason to put in a relay. I do agree that BMW is not the only manufacturer to suffer from such issues. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that since BMW likes to bring their newest technology out before anyone else does, it sometimes seems like a beta version...

[Apostolos]

Test

[R75/5]

@sospelotudo
Quickly three disclaimers before I'd like to reply: First, Contrary to the common trend, I don't blame BMW for anything. They didn't expose that plug in the first place and I have no precise knowledge of what they intended to do with it. So when I'm faffing around with this thing I'm completely aware of the fact that I'm on my own if things don't behave to my liking.
Second, concerning the CAN-bus in general: Well, I discussed this issue with my BMW mechanic (which btw deep-discharged from that plug one day with some generic mobile phone charger) and also on several occasions with friends which ended up in the automotive industry (One is working on injection electronics for BOSCH). My impression is that there is a growing concensus that what ADV-bikes (and real off-road cars for that matter) are concerned, CAN-bus has some disadantages: It sucks for field repairs. It sucks for reverse engineering when the right part is not at hand. It sucks for 3^rd party assessory compatibility. And it very often ends up locking vital parts of the electronics (injection system, charging loop, fuel pump) just because some goofy assessory or the light system does something weired (In the old days you rip out the fuse and limp home). But yes, I am also well aware of the advantages for day-to-day use, road security, fault diagnosis (if you have the right kit, that is), protecting the engine, etc, etc and why it is here to stay. But all that is a different discussion, which doesn't belong in this thread.
Third, I'd actually like to applaud you for posting here as an officially “BMW affilliated” person. My advice: Wear protective leather gear, you will need a thick hide.
But back to the issue:

Originally Posted by sospelotudo

Let me spout my hearsay. I have seen those step-down transformers keep the ZFE awake, firsthand. I am of the schematically unproven, but technically apparent, opinion that the residual remaining in the transformer makes the ZFE think a charger is plugged in: another reason to put in a relay. I do agree that BMW is not the only manufacturer to suffer from such issues. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that since BMW likes to bring their newest technology out before anyone else does, it sometimes seems like a beta version...

Finally, out of curiosity I got a couple of weeks ago down and dirty with this and tested this “switch off ” mistery. This was after a ridiculous scene on a parking lot where I made an absolute clown of myself getting my deep discharged bike up and running. Anyway, I have measured this with several loads which I intended initially (not all the same time, naturally) to connect there. They all had different residual currents between 50 and 300mA, if I remember right (since I'm at work I don't have my notes).
Since this “ZFS remains up” effect doesn't happen all the time, you need a pretty big sample size of “power down cycles” (which include a waiting period of a minute) to see the effect. At some point I didn't feel like sacrificing my head-light bulb and also got bored, so I decided to call it a day after reconfirming three failures on three different devices and finally threw in a relay (~5$).
Why didn't I wise up earlier?
Well, my real worry was that if I put in a relay, which is also pulling (depending on the type) 50-150mA, why shouldn't the same thing happen?
Well no idea, but it worked.
So please note that your advice “just put in a relay” is double edged: My relay of 80Ω pans out fine. Some other relay of 60Ω, 100Ω might or might not work. And while we're at it: My hunch is that it might have something to do with the fact that the relay is (in a dc loop) a purely resistive load, but not the other charging assessories: DC voltage regulation cannot be done with step-down transformers. For this type of applications you use normally a charge pump type 3-Terminal Positive Voltage Regulator. My old garmin charger used a LM78M05. Don't feel curious enough to brake my recent one, but I bet they put in something similar. Since these regulators use capacitors to bump up (or down) V_output, they leave some ripple on V_input. Might be that what interferes with the CAN-bus. Either way, figuring out this kind of stuff used to be easier.

Originally Posted by Adv Grifter

This comes from someone well placed in the BMW hierarchy, close to corporate goings on. (and a huge BMW fan) I will double check with him and ask for sources within BMW to confirm.
I find it hard to believe BMW would do this after spending years developing the system. On many large BMW's the CANbus system uses 3 computers to operate, so perhaps it's a cost thing? Dunno.

Thanks for the follow up. That would be really interesting to know. I would really appreciate if you could share any information should this be reconfirmed.

[JRWooden]

Originally Posted by DockingPilot

Mine always shuts off. As far as I know. I dont have connected to the BMW plug though if that matters.
276c.

Thanks folks!

I may just wire the GPS to the battery directly leaving just my LED on the switched GPS output. I never leave the GPS on the bike if I'm away from it, so there won't be a big power drain and I would hope that with the DC-to-DC converter "brick" out of the circuit it will behave.

If not I'll go with a relay approach ... CANBus ... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Keystone]

ChiTown, what's the last few of your VIN? I have bike 00031 and it's been faultless so far except for the following:

1. Fuel-clogged charcoal canister causing fuel tank vacuum
2. Flaky oil-pressure sensor giving me false warnings in the middle of the pine barrens of New Jersey. Replaced sensor and no more false positives.
3. Bent sidestand

First two handled under warranty (Hermy's BMW rocks!) and the third I just haven't had taken care of yet. 18,000 miles on the bike.

[drrags]

Originally Posted by YetiGS

Joe,

Had the same thing happen with my 1200GS. Rode to a meeting. Came out, turned on the bike and next to nothing. Replaced under warranty BUT . . .

with the kind of riding you do and the places you go, you might wanna think about replacing your battery with an Odyssey. My problem with the BMW battery is that it dies a sudden death with no warning. I want my battery to give a hint that it's going.

Try this:
Battery Bug

[NEVERLOST]

Can you imagine if Yamaha would take a bike like the Xt225, simple, cheap and reliable and put a decent sized twin in it? It would selll like stink and alllow all these long suffering GS owners an option. , i saved you the reply and added it to my post. Just saying, there is a lot of negatives about this once promising ride.

[guzzimike]

Originally Posted by ChiTown

Good enough for you Mr. Been Doing this 30 years?










Hey genius,







Hey dickhead,



so kiss my ass.















.

Perhaps if you weren't such an unpleasant individual, with your constant personal denigration of other forum members...............................

[ktmdreamer]