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Old 04-18-2010, 06:50 AM   #16
Lion BR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Unlimited
We are the only morons in the world that put the crap in our gas.
Not true.
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:03 AM   #17
oclv454 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_S
Mine is an intermittent crank no start but cold. Fuel level has no effect nor does ambient temp.
I have been scouring the net looking for information on this issue and it seems bmw is putting injectors in but it hasn't fixed any bikes that I have read about.
When I originally posted that my bike occasionally wouldn't start when warm, it was because each time to that point the engine was warm. Last Thursday, the engine was cold.

I too, have looked at all forums I could find and it seems the issue is still somewhat of a mystery. Some say voltage to the fuel pump, some say injectors, some say charcoal cannister, some say water in the gas.

I'll keep you posted. oclv
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:10 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Unlimited
We are the only morons in the world that put the crap in our gas.
Nah, in Brazil they run 22% ethanol (made from sugar) in their automotive gas. I wonder what BMW says to Brazilian F800 owners.

David
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oclv454
When I originally posted that my bike occasionally wouldn't start when warm, it was because each time to that point the engine was warm. Last Thursday, the engine was cold.

I too, have looked at all forums I could find and it seems the issue is still somewhat of a mystery. Some say voltage to the fuel pump, some say injectors, some say charcoal cannister, some say water in the gas.

I'll keep you posted. oclv
Please do. I've ruled out the canister (disconnected it from the system), Not water in the gas as mine has been on going through many tanks from different stations, plus usually that will display driveability issues not just a complete failure to attempt to start. I wish I could find a diagram to monitor fuel pump voltage. There are 3 wires there. When the bike is running there is battery/charging voltage on one, ground on the other, and a bit over 7 volts on the last. I assume the 7 volt wire is a signal wire showing the pumps current draw or resistance value? If I run a jumper to the 12 volt wire key on engine off the pump does not run so it appears ground is supplied from a controller as well it would seem. I'm probably going to make up a harness that I can connect to the pos & neg terminals on the pump to see what readings I get when it won't start. I'm hesitant to supply direct power and ground to the pump when it doesn't start not knowing where the wires lead from. bmw's refusal to allow us to purchase repair info on the electronics is one of the things that has me the most frustrated about this entire problem. If i discover anything I'll post back here. Maybe I have my head in the sand but normal logic concerning fuel injection just doesn't allow me to believe it is both fuel injectors with intermittent failures at the same time. Could be fuel pump but that also doesn't explain why the bike will start and run if I give it a shot of starting fluid. It's almost like the pump isn't getting the signal to prime when ignition is first turned on but I haven't verified this yet as mine has been starting since I began digging into the problem.
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_S
Please do. I've ruled out the canister (disconnected it from the system), Not water in the gas as mine has been on going through many tanks from different stations, plus usually that will display driveability issues not just a complete failure to attempt to start. I wish I could find a diagram to monitor fuel pump voltage. There are 3 wires there. When the bike is running there is battery/charging voltage on one, ground on the other, and a bit over 7 volts on the last. I assume the 7 volt wire is a signal wire showing the pumps current draw or resistance value? If I run a jumper to the 12 volt wire key on engine off the pump does not run so it appears ground is supplied from a controller as well it would seem. I'm probably going to make up a harness that I can connect to the pos & neg terminals on the pump to see what readings I get when it won't start. I'm hesitant to supply direct power and ground to the pump when it doesn't start not knowing where the wires lead from. bmw's refusal to allow us to purchase repair info on the electronics is one of the things that has me the most frustrated about this entire problem. If i discover anything I'll post back here. Maybe I have my head in the sand but normal logic concerning fuel injection just doesn't allow me to believe it is both fuel injectors with intermittent failures at the same time. Could be fuel pump but that also doesn't explain why the bike will start and run if I give it a shot of starting fluid. It's almost like the pump isn't getting the signal to prime when ignition is first turned on but I haven't verified this yet as mine has been starting since I began digging into the problem.

Can you normally hear the pump prime when you turn the key?
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:48 AM   #21
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Yes. The easiest way is to remove the seat and listen right at the pump connector. Once you here it and know what to listen for you can hear it with the seat on. There are a lot of buzzes and clicking going on when the key is cycled on but the pump gives a distinctive whine for a very brief period when the key is cycled.
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_S
Yes. The easiest way is to remove the seat and listen right at the pump connector. Once you here it and know what to listen for you can hear it with the seat on.
So is it not even priming when you have the failure to start?
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Old 04-18-2010, 08:18 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_S
... I'm leaning towards a fuel pump control issue or a sensor input or signal processing that for some reason doesn't get the on signal sent to the pump or pulse to the injectors.


There was an append over on F800Riders about a guy with same issue.
The dealer found that the voltage at the fuel pump only 1.5V, not enough to start the fuel pump. They used a jumper wire and ran it from the + side of the battery to the blue green connector at the fuel pump and the bike started and ran fine.

Also note that if you look at the MaxBMW microfiche for our bikes you will find new (superceeded) P/N posted for both the fuel pump and the fuel pump control electronics.

There is a 2-wire and a 3-wire connector going into the top of the fuel pump assby, I'd sure like the color code for the wiring on those plugs. In the mean time I have added a jumper wire to my on-bike tool kit.
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Old 04-18-2010, 12:01 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni
So is it not even priming when you have the failure to start?

I haven't verified this. Since I have started digging into it it has not acted up so I have not been able to verify whether it is priming or not.
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Old 04-18-2010, 12:24 PM   #25
David_S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden

There was an append over on F800Riders about a guy with same issue.
The dealer found that the voltage at the fuel pump only 1.5V, not enough to start the fuel pump. They used a jumper wire and ran it from the + side of the battery to the blue green connector at the fuel pump and the bike started and ran fine.

Also note that if you look at the MaxBMW microfiche for our bikes you will find new (superceeded) P/N posted for both the fuel pump and the fuel pump control electronics.

There is a 2-wire and a 3-wire connector going into the top of the fuel pump assby, I'd sure like the color code for the wiring on those plugs. In the mean time I have added a jumper wire to my on-bike tool kit.
I think the two wires are for the sender but I may be wrong. The 3 wires have power and ground on two when the pump is running and the third a bit over 7 volts after the pump is running and the bike started. The system has the ability to sense fuel pump current draw (at least I've read that it does) so I think that is what the third wire is for but that is speculation on my part since I have no info or diagram to go by (thanks bmw ) . If I run a jumper from the battery positive to the wire carrying the battery voltage when the pump is not running the pump will still not run so I'm doubtful the dealer really accomplished that. Probably just a fluke and the bike would have started regardless of the jumper. The pump only gets power for a very brief period during the key on cycle and then goes to just over 1 volt. It happens so fast my dvom can not even pick up the full sweep of voltage increase and decrease. There will not be battery voltage at the pump after that initial key cycle until cranking when the controller then turns on the pump and the bike starts so seeing low voltage there with the key on engine off is normal, at least on my bike it is. I'm probably going to end up running two jumpers to the pos and neg wires on that 3 wire connector and see if the pump runs. If it does at least I'll be able to manual activate the pump and if that gets the bike started then I'll at least know it's fuel pump control and not pump or injectors. Of course getting the dealer to believe that if they can't verify it is going to be difficult. I think part of the problem with the dealers is this technology is new to many of the techs so it's on the job training so to speak. I've been an auto tech for over 25 years and at a new car dealership for the last 20 and I'm continuously learning to fix things as they break so I can't see it being any different for bikes. Not to mention trying to diagnose a problem that will only occur very intermittently can be a nightmare. Hopefully someone will get a concrete fix on this because there are enough out there with the same issue that the fix will probably be the same for all or most of them. We just need someone's dealer to get a for sure fix on one. I like riding too much to leave my bike sit at the dealer indefinitely hopping it will act up long enough for them to diagnose it so I'm just riding around with a can of starting fluid in the back. I'm not sure whether superseded parts numbers mean they have been modified. The manufacturer I work for supersedes part numbers on a regular basis and many times end up back with the original number. I was told by a factory rep that anytime they change suppliers for a part the number changes.
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:18 AM   #26
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Thanks David!
Keep us posted....

My bike has made kind of an electronic "beep" that lasted about one second every time I turn the key on, I figured it was a "feature" ....

Last night I took the seat off and found that it is the fuel pump priming or so it sounds when I put my ear up to the pump. At least on my bike it is very easy to hear/recognize when the prime cycle is happening .... now that I know what it is ........

I had the fuel sender unit replaced a while back on the recall and I SWEAR that since then the fuel pump sounds louder I can hear it hummmmmmmmmm at idle. I took it back to the dealer and they ran the diags. on it and said it was all good ....
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Old 04-19-2010, 01:12 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorks
Nah, in Brazil they run 22% ethanol (made from sugar) in their automotive gas. I wonder what BMW says to Brazilian F800 owners.

David
Alcohol is not a problem as long as the fuel does not ALSO contain significant water, or is missing solvents and buffers required in specific ratios.

A few states actually test fuel octane

Fewer still actually test for alcohol quantity and required additives

Most simply check metering accuracy

Many many things, hundreds can and do cause stalls so it is not just one mysterious problem.

Occasionally fuel contamination IS the problem.

I still don't know what this is:

P1020876

But I do know that I pumped it into a freshly uncrated bike from a station down the street.

2.5 months later when the bike sold and would not start for the test ride before delivery, the above picture was what I found in the tank.

So whatever this is, it came from a reputable fuel station and corroded the fuel pump to death and stuck the fuel injectors shut.


Not saying this is anyone else's cause of stalling as there are many, but bad fuel is real and does cause damage.
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Old 04-19-2010, 09:01 PM   #28
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ahhhhhhhhhhhh crap.............

Joel you are scaring me ........

How in the hell can I guy out for a long ride protect against this....

Recovering from this is real money (not like the old days of carbs) and how would you be able to pin it on the gas station?
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:06 PM   #29
oclv454 OP
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Quick update on my starting issue. The fuel in my tank tested at 10% ethanol. Injectors were ordered and should be here in day or two. I decided not to do the charcoal cannister and fuel pump. Charcoal cannister not terribly expensive but hard to get at to change it. Fuel pump pretty expensive and they felt the pump should be fine. I got the idea that someone in the BMW organization suggested putting BMW fuel additive in the gas on these engines. I'll be skiing Thursday through Sunday so will pick it up on Tuesday. Will keep you posted. oclv
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:37 AM   #30
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Oclv:

Thanks for the update!

Like someone else said first ... It seems curious that BOTH injectors could go dead at the same time ... if only one was bad it could start and run (badly) on one cylinder. For both to go bad at the same time it almost seems like there would have to be some "common" issue upstream of the injectors ... Have fun sking ... keep us posted!
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