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Old 05-04-2010, 10:59 AM   #31
ULELUZE
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My F800 does this as well, going in for the 10k service next week and this is one of the items I would like them to look at. I find it does it cold or hot and will start with a few twists of the throttle after about 20 seconds of cranking. If I dont give any throttle it will not start.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:38 PM   #32
Indy Unlimited
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Run a heavy dose of seafoam thru it and clean the injectors now. She will start without issues once they are clean.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:22 AM   #33
David_S
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just to throw this out there. Mine was to the point I was ready to sell it I had such little confidence. I shorted the ground cable to the positive side of the battery for a few hours (thanks Joel Wisman) while I went to town to buy some seafoam. I also quit running shell gas. It has not failed to start for the last 500 or so miles which is probably 2 weeks worth of daily commuting. If it is in fact fixed I'll attribute it to the memory clearing process rather than fuel or dirty injectors. It just ran too good when it started for it to be fuel or dirty injectors. When it wouldn't start it just plain would not start no matter what I did with the throttle. I never was able to confirm whether the fuel pump was priming or not as it hasn't acted up since i started chasing the problem I'm planning a 12-14 day trip for late June early July so i hope this gal doesn't let me down or I'll be riding home on a wee or something different for sure!
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:22 PM   #34
oclv454 OP
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I picked up my motorcycle last Friday. They replaced the injectors and suggested BMW Techron fuel additive. I rode Monday and Tuesday night. Many shut off and starts. Put in gas on Monday. So far everything seems as it should. Hopefully there will be no more starting issues. Now if I can smooth out the off idle throttle surges. The more I ride it the better I get with it, but it is a handful on technical rocky conditions. oclv
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:45 PM   #35
BMWHillbilly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_S
Yes. The easiest way is to remove the seat and listen right at the pump connector. Once you here it and know what to listen for you can hear it with the seat on. There are a lot of buzzes and clicking going on when the key is cycled on but the pump gives a distinctive whine for a very brief period when the key is cycled.
I have had a few non-starts with the spinning and spinning and the tech told me to listen for the fuel pump to prime next time I have an issue. Mine usually wouldn't start after sitting a day or two. the temps were around 50* ambient in the mornings. He also re-calibrated the idle actuator but wasn't sure it would help. I have not had a starting issue since ( ~1000 miles ago)

*knock on wood*
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:51 PM   #36
gpracer171
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I am reluctant on the Injectors

Just purchased a 2003 F650GS for my father. Did not want to start. When It did start I noticed the Tach did not register for the first few seconds and it was runner very rough. I shut it off at the key, waited a few moments and it started and acted fine. I suspect this is a controller issue. Now he reports it had an issue in traffic that it would not idle without dying. He then made a stop, shut it off and when he continued, no issue, it ran fine. I think there is something to the memory idea and the controller concern. Looks like a glitch in the electronics.
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Old 05-19-2010, 06:26 PM   #37
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oclv,
when i read your initial post i thought i was reading my own writing! i had the exact same thing happen to me a month or so ago - up riding trails all day with no issues, fueled up before hitting the highway to go home (at a Shell station), then nothing. i also filled the tank rather full (while on side stand), but no firing even with gas cap open. BMW walked me through the computer reset (unplug negative terminal for few minutes, plug back in, key on, fully open and close throttle 3 times, then start) - nada... eventually like you had to get it hauled to dealer. they could find nothing wrong, started right up a few days later when they finally could get to looking at it. diagnostics offered no cause. haven't had a problem since, but definitely makes you worry about going into the boonies. i'll definitely be trying some seafoam to try to clean the injectors, but you'd think it would have at least run rough or gave some sign of dirty injectors prior to the failure firing altogether. i'll be curious to see if anyone gets to the bottom of this. sorry for your troubles but glad i'm not the only one!
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Old 05-20-2010, 07:33 AM   #38
oclv454 OP
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Cycledoc, you are not the only one. Mine has been running fine since the new injectors were installed. I haven't been riding much since they were installed and have only filled the gas tank twice since the fix (seems to be snowing here every other day). I put in 4 ounces of Seafoam on the last tank. I am carrying the fuel additive in a metal 20 ounce fuel container that I got at REI. I also bought a little plastic measuring cup that has marks on it for ounces. I got some BMW techron fuel additive and some Seafoam. I plan to use the Seafoam for a while, then when my fuel bottle is empty I'll switch to the BMW fuel additive and see if there is any difference. I am still wary about the injector fix. Seems odd to me also that a bike will run perfectly, then a couple minutes later won't run at all and have it due to clogged injectors. Seems more of an electrical issue or computer issue to me. oclv
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:26 AM   #39
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I was as in much belief but I have had no issues using Seafoam for 4 months now with the new injectors and I buy the worst ethanol gas made by Shell.
My understanding is the ethanol & water eat and corrodes the fuel pump which in turn clogs the injectors. I now run 4 oz of Seamfoam per tank and she starts every time and runs great. During the winter I had pulled up to 3 gas stations and could not restart after filling due to the injectors getting clogged. The tapping trick helps but you really need seafoam to break down particles and unclog the injectors. It really really works!
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:25 PM   #40
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oclv454
. I plan to use the Seafoam for a while, then when my fuel bottle is empty I'll switch to the BMW fuel additive and see if there is any difference. I am still wary about the injector fix. Seems odd to me also that a bike will run perfectly, then a couple minutes later won't run at all and have it due to clogged injectors. Seems more of an electrical issue or computer issue to me. oclv
Please keep us posted on the seafoam vs. BMW fuel additive!
Just from reading the ingredient list I would think the BMW (aka Techron Fuel System Cleaner) would do a better job but WTF do I know....
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:56 PM   #41
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden
Please keep us posted on the seafoam vs. BMW fuel additive!
Just from reading the ingredient list I would think the BMW (aka Techron Fuel System Cleaner) would do a better job but WTF do I know....
dito. I'm no chemist. What I have gathered from smater people then me is.

Water, alcohol and sulpher makes sulpheric acid and corodes the fuel pump and injectors.

Sulpher and phosforus falls out of suspension and builds up on fuel level sensors and injector pentles / nozzles.

Polymers from hoses builds up in injector nozzles and pentles.

Gasoline breaks down into it's componant parts over time. Alcohol exascerbates this and Sta-bil does not work in fuel fortified with alcohol.

We are using techron concentrate fuel system cleaner on our entire new and used fleet and it seems to be working well as a preventative and even has noticable restorative properties on bikes that already have poor injector spray paterns.

Does sea foam work better or the same and is cheaper?

Cheaper or better would be great!

Also, what are your thoughts on fill procedures.

Right now, new bikes come in the crate with 1/4 gallon of fuel. The fuel is not treated but is alcohol free.

We add one oz of techron fuel system cleaner and 1 gallon of gas as we are required to test ride as soon as the bike is uncrated. The bike then sits in the showroom until purchased, at which point we fill it the rest of the way with fresh gas.

On used bikes, since they are always available for test rides, I fill them with gas and 1oz per gallon of techron fsc. These bikes are ridden at least 6 miles once a month by me in addition to test rides.

Any thoughts on this?

There is only one me, and I am responcible for run ability on all new and used bikes. Between fueling, exercising, airing tires, charging batteries, fluids and everything else, I have no time to spare as I have many other duties as well.

But if anyone has any suggestions on improving the condition bikes are delivered in, or cutting labor and chemical costs, I'm all ears.
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:18 PM   #42
JRWooden
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Joel & all:

At least where I live, the price of sea foam and techron are roughly the same ... catch them on sale and the are still roughly the same but cheaper ...

I can not imagine that Sea foam is MORE effective than techron but I could be wrong... I posted links to the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) in another thread or this one (I can post again if somebody wants them) listing the components for both and seafoam (I mean no offence here...) is rather simple ... and about 1/2 of it is a just a light-weight oil ...

Please seafoam fans: don't kick my ass ... I have some in the garage... but still I gotta vote for Techron.

Since it costs so little, perhaps a bit of regular old 2-cycle oil at a ratio of say 100:1 or 150:1 could not hurt the showroom bikes? At 100:1 or better they won't smoke so the customers won't be offended, and the oil could help inhibit corrosion???

The only other thing I can think of is to find a source for 100% gasoline, (no ethanol...) the only possible sources I can think of might be boat marinas and private airstrips and I don't know the legalities but for a showroom operation we would not be talking about a lot of gallons ???

I just can't beleive how bad this sucks ... the people of the USA have invested tons of money in advanced equipment only to have it handicapped with crappy gas+ethanol that, in the best case, offers a marginal benefit to the environment.
Whine whine whine ... where's my beer.............

Joel: If I come up with any clever ideas I'll post it's the least I can do for you... and ...

PS: my daughter just came in asked who Joe-EL was ... Joe-EL??? I say??? What are you talking about it's Joel.

Her response: Welll if Noel (as in the Christmas song) is No-EL then Joel must be: Joe-EL ...

Kids you gotta love 'em!

Ok ... I'll shut up if it were me: I'd use Techron + a bit of 2-cycle oil.
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:15 PM   #43
Indy Unlimited
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Best Price on Seafoam $6.35 per 16 oz. can with shipping:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JN2EU?ie=UTF8&tag=webbikewcom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0002JN2EU

Quoted from Seafoam Sales:

Sea Foam Motor Treatment is a unique 100% pure petroleum oil product, developed to solve specific problems that are common to gasoline, gas/oil mixed fuels & diesel fuels used in all types and styles of 2 cycle, 4 cycle, diesel and Rotary (Wankel type) engines in common use in all automotive, truck, fleet, industrial, agricultural, specialty industries and small engine applications.
When Sea Foam Motor Treatment is added at 1 ounce per gallon to commonly available 10% & 15 % blended Ethanol fuels as recommended, Sea Foam:
  • Adds lubrication for upper cylinders and vital fuel system components
  • Dries moisture and works as an anti-gel
  • Cleans fuel system residue
  • Stabilizes fuel for up to 2 years or more
  • Cleans carbon deposits from pistons, heads & valves as the engine is run
Sea Foam has been used in Ethanol fuels (10%, 15% and most recently E-85) successfully since their initial introduction into the marketplace during the 1990’s. As these “New” Ethanol fuels become more widely available nationwide, questions have arisen about the use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment in Ethanol fuels.

Sea Foam Motor Treatment has been performing its engine component cleaning function in gasoline and diesel engines since 1940, and now it performs this same function just as well in Ethanol-blended fuels. An average one ounce Sea Foam per gallon of Fuel is recommended in both gasoline and in 10% & 15% Ethanol blends.
Ethanol fuels differ from standard gasoline in a few aspects, presenting potential issues that can be addressed through the use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment.
  1. Ethanol tends to strip engine oil from cylinder walls and can be harsh on exposed surfaces & components that require lubrication. Sea Foam is oil, adding lubrication to upper cylinders that will prolong the life of your engine.
  2. Ethanol absorbs moisture which needs to be removed from the Ethanol. Sea Foam dries moisture from fuel.
  3. Ethanol leaves deposits which periodically need to be cleaned. Sea Foam is a fuel residue and carbon cleaner.
  4. Ethanol deteriorates as fast as non-ethanol fuel, the need to stabilize remains. Sea Foam is the best fuel stabilizer around.
  5. Ethanol burns faster, hotter, & makes about 18% less power than gasoline – characteristics that make it less desirable. This tendency to burn faster and hotter increases the risk of damage from pre-ignition and detonation – especially in engines with carbon build-up in their cylinders. Adding Sea Foam slows down the burn rate of Ethanol to levels resembling standard gasoline.
  1. Ethanol tends to strip engine oil from cylinder walls and can be harsh on exposed surfaces & components that require lubrication. Sea Foam is oil, adding lubrication to upper cylinders that will prolong the life of your engine.
  2. Ethanol absorbs moisture which needs to be removed from the Ethanol. Sea Foam dries moisture from fuel.
  3. Ethanol leaves deposits which periodically need to be cleaned. Sea Foam is a fuel residue and carbon cleaner.
  4. Ethanol deteriorates as fast as non-ethanol fuel, the need to stabilize remains. Sea Foam is the best fuel stabilizer around.
  5. Ethanol burns faster, hotter, & makes about 18% less power than gasoline – characteristics that make it less desireable. This tendency to burn faster and hotter increases the risk of damage from pre-ignition and detonation – especially in engines with carbon build-up in their cylinders. Adding Sea Foam slows down the burn rate of Ethanol to levels resembling standard gasoline.
Sea Foam recommends 2 ounces of Sea Foam per gallon of E-85 blended fuel for moisture control and added lubrication because of E-85’s MINIMUM 70% ethanol content. (Minnesota labels E-85 as MINIMUM 70% Ethanol content or more)


THE USE OF SEA FOAM MOTOR TREATMENT IN E-85 FUELS
Technical Services Department – Sea Foam Sales Company Sea Foam Motor Treatment is a unique 100% pure petroleum oil product that solves specific concerns in engines that use E-85 fuels. Sea Foam recommends adding 2 ounces of Sea Foam Motor Treatment per gallon of E-85 blended fuels for the best results. Always follow instructions for all applications - Use in Fuels, Use by Induction (Air Intake, Main Manifold Vacuum line serving all cylinders or Direct Induction Systems).
  1. Cleans fuel injectors – Add to Fuel or Use Direct Induction System. E-85 leaves deposits on injectors, which periodically needs to be cleaned.
  2. Cleans carbon - Add to Fuel or Use by Direct Induction Systems. E-85 leaves carbon deposits the same as non-ethanol fuels and must be cleaned.
  3. Cleans carburetor jets–Add to Fuel. E-85 leaves residue in carburetors that must be cleaned.
  4. Helps prevent corrosion issues common to E-85 fuels and removes moisture - Add to Fuel. E-85 is corrosive and draws moisture that must be removed.
  5. Adds lubricity – Add to Fuel. E-85 fuel lacks lubrication and is harsh on engine parts. The use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment gives the lubricity needed for less wear on engines.
  6. Stabilizes fuels – Add to Fuel. E-85 becomes stale within 30 days and must be stabilized. Sea Foam Motor Treatment stabilizes fuels for 2 years.
  7. Upper cylinder lubrication–Add to Fuel. E-85 is harsh on engine parts and the use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment gives the lubrication needed for less wear on engine parts.
  8. Cleans catalytic converter odors – Add to Fuel. The use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment helps remove converter odors.
  9. Cleans P.C.V. systems – Add to Fuel. The use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment helps keep P.C.V. Systems clean.
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Indy Unlimited screwed with this post 05-20-2010 at 10:48 PM
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:00 AM   #44
David_S
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snip There is only one me, and I am responcible for run ability on all new and used bikes. Between fueling, exercising, airing tires, charging batteries, fluids and everything else, I have no time to spare as I have many other duties as well. snip

Joel tell the dealer principle to pry open his wallet and hire another tech before you get so burned out you hate your job and it makes you and your family miserable. I'm there but the time factor may be an issue as well, 25 years with the last 20 at the same place. You have too many duties to be flat rate so adding another guy, even a trainee to help out shouldn't effect your income. It sounds like you should have the leverage. Of course if work is your life keep at it but I like to say I work to live not live to work
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:50 AM   #45
RamblerTim
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So to summarize if I put in about 4 oz of Sea Foam or Techron each time I fill up I should be able to avoid this issue?

I only have about 230 miles on my bike.

About how many miles were on your bikes when this started happening?

I want to be ready will watching my bike when it hits that many miles...
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