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Old 06-25-2010, 01:48 PM   #1
crackhead OP
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Which parts store pump works with R11xxGS? Actually?

I keep reading about this pump from Autozone, NAPA wherever for a 4cyl
Mustang or a 3-Series BMW, or Hyundai that supposedly will work with a bit of finegalling.. So who has actually replaced their stock BMW pump with one and which one did you use? Thanks..
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Old 06-25-2010, 04:54 PM   #2
yxome
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which pump

Exactly which pump are you talking about? Fuel pump, oil pump, tire pump?
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Old 06-25-2010, 06:08 PM   #3
crackhead OP
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Fuel pump.. thanks..
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Old 06-25-2010, 06:26 PM   #4
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I have installed...

one of these Ford 4 cylinder pumps in a K100 RT I owned.
installed it in 2000 and ran over 50k on it, it is still in service.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATX-E2390/?rtype=10

I machined an adapter ring to mount it in the tank where the original pump was mounted.

most all of these pumps are functionally interchangable,
if you can work out the details of mounting the pump.

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Old 06-25-2010, 06:34 PM   #5
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Im pretty sure I can handle the mounting.. Ive seen these in K-Bikes, but has anyone dropped one into an R-Bike?
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:41 PM   #6
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Many fuel pumps will work, some with only minor accommodation. Think flow rate not just form factor (see below). The only direct replacement for the factory equipped VDO pump on the R11xx appears to be the Norris Replika.offered by EME. Crackhead did specify that he wants to be able to source from an auto parts house and others may wish to do this on the road as well.

Quick tutorial on pump terms and selection criteria: Rx11xx injection system runs at 43.5 psi + - 1.5. and specifies a pump with minimum 100 lph capacity. Simply selecting a replacement pump with a similar form factor is NOT sufficient and a common mistake. The replacement pump must have a head relief valve set higher than 50 psi and be capable of minimum 100 lph flow rate at 45 psi. Higher may be o.k., but not lower. Selection of suitable aftermarket pumps requires understanding a few terms and concepts. Fuel pressure is kept constant in the R11xx by a fuel regulator which is located externally to the fuel tank. The by-pass regulation system releases excess pressure from the system by returning un-used fuel to the tank via the return line. Therefore, it is possible to use a pump with a slightly higher flow design rate and/or one with a higher set head relief valve. Minimum pump head relief pressure (emergency cut-off pressure) must be >50 psi but should not be confused with "operating design pressure".

"Max head pressure" or "cut-off" pressure or "relief valve pressure" is the pump specification at which the pump's emergency relief valve relieves pressure from the pump head back in to the tank to protect the fuel lines when there is an abnormal restriction such as plugged fuel filter. Unlike the fuel regulator, in normal operation the pump relief valve is always closed. System pressure is always function of the BMW regulator as long as the pump relief valve was factory set higher than the BMW 43.5 psi regulator AND there is sufficient flow from the pump to meet engine demand (>100lph). Simply put do not buy any pump with a relief pressure less than 50 psi. or less than 100 lph capacity at 50 psi, 12 volts rated.
  • The pressure advertised on a pump is often just a design rating and does not mean that the pump will be delivering that pressure after installation
  • Two pumps may look identical but one may have an emergency relief (cut-off) that is set too low. Such a pump will never develop enough pressure to operate the injectors properly. Recently an inmate unknowingly installed a "pre-pump" which had a cutt-off set to 10 psi. The bike would start but had no power.
  • Pay attention to whether the design flow rating was measured at 12, 13 or 14 volts. The importance of this is explained below.
  • Note the current draw of the pump at 50 psi from the manufacturer's pump performance graph. Some lower cost replacements draw excessively high current, as much as 15 amps. High draw pumps can effectively lower the pump supply voltage. You will under-supply your engine if the pump requires 13 or 14 volts to deliver 100 lph minimum flow yet you are only supplying 12 volts or less at the pump. Selecting a low draw, efficient pump reduces the chance that there will be fuel under-supply. Further aggravating this problem is the light gauge wiring used on early oilheads. All of the 1150's have heavier pump wiring and should have higher voltage at the pump terminals than early 1100's. One volt dramatically affects the true flow rate of a pump. Check the pumps performance graph which shows the range of flow at various voltages. Low pump voltage to a 140 lph 13 volt rated pump should not be as much of an issue as a pump rated for 100 lph at 13.5 volts. The latter might only be supplying 85 lph at 12.0 volts.
Back-flow prevention is incorporated in all f.i. pumps but is much better in some pumps than others and it gradually declines with pump age resulting in Leak-down. Leak downcauses poor hot vehicle performance and/or hard starting.

Under-supply
causes fuel starvation and must always be avoided. It can result from anything from plugged injectors, plugged filter, worn out chassis fuel regulator, to kinked lines, vacuum in the tank or insufficient pump flow. Helpful to do a pressure before and after replacing the fuel pump.

Over-supply is less of an issue but can can happen when the flow rate from a high performance pump is much greater than engine demand. This causes the BMW regulator to be over-run and its spring may fatigue. Over-running will not likely be a problem unless your pump output is greater than 155 lph flow at 50 psi and 12 volts.

edit to add GM model: 1985 OLDSMOBILE 98 REGENCY 3.8L 231cid V6 MFI (3) OHV : Fuel/Air : Fuel Pump
RockAuto.com :http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php
Note: You have to search by entering the Oldsmobile above to see the selection of pump brands.

Have purchased from RockAuto and they have good service. They offer several complete kits including a Bosch 69222 for $57.79. Appears to have the correct rubber vibration damper plus everything but the fuel strainer. note: I have not tried this pump application, and one listing on another site shows a design pressure of 28 psi. It may not last as long when run at 45 psi but does seem to offer an excellent price/value point and promises an easy fit. RockAuto offers Bosch, Airtex, Delphi, ACDelco, Denso and a Chinese one for $37. Another supplier even offers the Bosch 69222 with a lifetime warranty. I found this by back cross referencing the Walbro # which is supplied by the mc vendors. I believe that The Oldsmobile calls for 27 gph (102 lph) at 50 psi and at 12vdc because that is the spec on the recommended Walbro which, again, is the same Walbo supplied in the BMW aftermarket kit. The actual Walbro kit is available here without a filter: http://www.inlinemotors.com/servlet/...nt-fuel/Detail
Inline Motors claims to offer genuine Walbro made in U.S.A
  • Beware of Walbro fakes. I have no experience with InlineAuto.
So there you have it. Several pumps to choose from. Who wants to be the test pig? Check the application for the Oldmobile pump and you will see that it fits VW, and many other makes and models. If you have those vehicle models then you can ask the chain store for a pump to fit any one of them. The same pump will often be priced differently depending on the application. Why does the same fan belt for a Benz cost more than one for a Chevy? Deep pockets?

continuing from before the edit:

Selection summary: First find a pump with a form factor that permits easy mounting and plumbing, then look for a version of that pump with a suitable relief valve setting. and design flow. Identical pumps are sold as a pre-pump but with relieve set at 10 psi, so be sure not to get that version. Select a design flow rate minimum which is at least least 100 lph when run at at 12 volts and 50 psi. Pump manufacturers offer a flow graph charts on line where you can view the a particular pumps performance at 11, 12, 13 or 14 volts and 50 psi so do not be put off by a distributors description which lists only one flow rate or pressure.

Check that the inlet (suction) side will fit the BMW support. You need an isolation rubber to fit the inlet side of the pump where it presses against the BMW support bracket. A pre-filter must fit through the bracket and attach to the pump. If an alcohol tolerant version is offered buy it. Choose low current design and good back-flow prevention for a few dollars more.

Optional adjustable fuel regulator: With the money you save on your pump consider buying a frame mounted compact adjustable fuel regulator to by pass both the BMW fixed regulator and the stock black nylon fuel spider. This will allow a much wider selection of fuel pumps, a pressure test port, the ability to run higher grade abrasion resistant braided fuel lines with more secure injector attachment, easier trouble-shooting and the ability to fine tune the fuel delivery. SummitRacing has a good selection. They start around $30. Some are anodized.

When sourcing an auto parts pump you will need the following:
  • pump designed to deliver minimum ~100lph at an externally regulated fuel pressure of ~45 psi assuming 12.0 volts at the pump terminals. Again do not confuse your system operating pressure for the "max operating " or "cut off pressure" listed on the box.
  • Rated minimum flow, if listed at 13 or 14 volts will be lower when installed, especially on R1100 owing to true operating volts at 12 vdc.
  • pump which fits the bmw bracket (many do fit w/o moding the BMW bracket)
  • can be set up with 5/16" hose barb output
  • a matching rubber damper to fit between the end of the pump and the bmw pump support
  • suitable fuel-resistant electrical wiring and connectors i.e to adapt bmw oem ring terminals to more common spade slip on
  • suitable pump inlet screen that fits the new pump inlet port, fits through the rubber damper, does not interfere with the fuel sender
  • a pump made in Germany or U.S.A by a reputable pump manufacturer such as Pierburgh (used on Mercedes) or Walbro (#5CA400),(U.S.A), or BOSCH.
  • Don't bother installing Chinese pumps unless as an emergency
  • a pump with a low electrical demand and one which won't be ruined by running low on fuel (many vane/turbine style pumps meet this criteria). Walbros are metal positive gear pumps, so if you use one of those then try not to run the tank too low or too often. Some replacement brands draw as much as 15 amps. The lower the current draw the better.
With some patience you will find what you need and you can easily end up with a better pump than the oem for much less $$. Once you supply the specifications and form factors presented above then fuel pump specialty shops can help you locate a suitable pumps, pre-filter and SAEJ30R10 submersible line. There are many choices to fit different budgets with emphasis on choice of economy, performance or reliability. Pump kits which are packaged for specific autos are always becoming obsolete and go on clearance. These kits offer exceptional value.

Helpful facts:
On the R11xx a slip on rubber damper is used between the pump suction end and the pump plate, Therefore, you need also to have a rubber damper which fits both the bmw mount and the new pump. The replacement pumps that work are often 37mm diameter instead the original 43mm VDO diameter, so the bmw rubber damper will not fit. The original rubber damper is probably falling apart anyway.

Pre-filter/inlet screen: The bmw mount is designed for an offset inlet. Remove the VDO fuel screen by prying it off with a screw driver. A very tight fit to the pump- protect the rubber damper with a bit of leather. You will see the teardrop shape of the VDO rubber and how the VDO inlet port is off-set. So select a pump that also has an offset inlet or modify the bmw support to fit a centered port inlet.

The BMW/VDO inlet filter screen most likely will not fit your new pump. Buy a suitable filter screen when you select the pump so you don't have to hunt one down later.

The replacement pump motor connections are often slip on rather than ring terminal so you must add a bit of fuel proof wire fitted with suitable fuel proof connectors. If available for your pump buy the slip on locking pigtail connector, otherwise use only high quality spade connectors with a good crimp job or solder.

Auto parts stores sell pumps by make and model. Often they do not have the specifications of what they are selling. Pumps that look similar to your stock VDO may not work because they may be designed as pre-pumps (delivering only 10 psi). Do not ask the average auto parts guy to merely find you a pump with similar form factor. If you think that you have found a pump that will work, then call the distributor to get the specs before you continue and ask if there is a better match with the form factor that you need.

Re-Cap flow design pressure vs "max head (cut-off) pressure":
The flow and design pressures listed on the box are just a guide. The cut-off pressure is not the same as the design pressure.

Actual flow depends on several conditions unique to the vehicle it is being installed on, among them: i) actual pump operating voltage at the pump terminals under load, ii) the vehicle's regulator condition and setting, and, iii) a requirement that the cut-off pressure setting is higher than the vehicle chassis regulator

Installation of a high flow, high performance 255 lph pump may work but should be avoided. You will probably over-run your bikes regulator, eventually weakening the spring from the excess flow. If that happens you will need to install a frame mounted adjustable regulator and new external plumbing. High performance- high flow pumps cost more and do not offer any advantage if they exceed the engines demand for fuel.

For safety avoid using pumps with cut-off relief settings that are higher than they need to be. In case of a plugged line you want the fuel to return to the tank via the pump head relief rather than causing a line to rupture. The lines inside and outside of the tank should be able to handle 75 lbs of pressure easily if properly installed and in good condition.

Four (4) common design flow rates:
pre-pump (low pressure, 10-12psi design pressure), and high pressure with standard, medium and high flow rates: 100, 155 and 255 lph with the latter being for high horsepower V8's.

Sound of Relief Valve actuating:
Many riders have heard this loud squeal from the VDO pump. While the noise can be the bearings it can also be the relief valve on the pump opening to relieve fuel from a plugged filter or kinked line. The more the relief valve opens, say because of a plugged filter or kinked line, the weaker it becomes. At some point the pump may spin but no longer deliver fuel pressure. If you hear this sound check the filter and lines as soon as possible. Quick resolution may save a pump from premature death. Understanding the function of the emergency relief valve built in to the pump head helps in pump selection and fault diagnosis.

Back-flow prevention valve in the pump head:
Quality counts here.. Better fuel pumps have better back-flow prevention. If you have hot re-start issues or performance issues then pressure test the system at a disconnected injector supply after key-off. The system should not leak down. If it does, than the other injector may be leaking, or the chassis regulator may leaking, or there could be a leak at a fuel connection inside the tank. The leaking back-flow in the pump head is very common especially on older pumps. Other than hard starting, this can manifest itself with engine stumble and stalling. Your pump may purr, but if the back-flow or the relief is weak then there will be either performance issues or complete loss of power.
The two functions, emergency pressure relief and back-flow prevention may be incorporated in one valve assembly on the pump head.

Pumps have flow delivery graphs and are optimized for a specific certain operating range
Check a pumps design flow graph. Many manufacture's publish these for specific pump models. Flow is charted against a range of operating pressures, voltages, and current consumed by the pump. Already known is the flow rate desired, ~100lph, the operating pressure of 43.5 psi, (3 bar) and the probable pump voltage being supplied by the GS wire harness (assume 12.0 for 1100 and 13.0 for the 1150). If you put you finger in the center of the graph and the lines intersect close to the GS parameters, then the pump is a good match. You may find that you are pushing the envelope on a slightly under-sized pump but still get 30k miles out of it.

Early oilheads had inadequate gauge wiring which was upgraded by BMW in subsequent models:
If you look carefully at 1994-2000 oilhead pump plates and connectors then you will see that BMW made a series of upgrades. Early pump plates have lighter gauge wires. An external ground was retro-fitted to some pump plates. If your chassis brown wire is lighter than the green on the 1100 then make sure the aux grounding is attached to one of the pump plate bolts. Many people removed them because that was an extra thing to un-plug when removing the tank. Latter BMW changed the bulkhead fittings and up-graded the plate conductors. Eventually, by the time of the 1150 heavy gauge wires for both green (batt pos) and brown (ground) went from the pump all the way back to thought the plate connector to the chassis loom. As stated above, a drop of just one volt at the pump terminals has a dramatic effect on minimum flow rate. It is not uncommon in the automotive performance world for up-grades to be made to the fuel pump supply. The easternbeaver site has a good explanation on how axillary wiring and relays are used to increase filament voltage. The same technique can be applied to the fuel pump on the 1100GS to boost pump output on a marginally rated or high current draw pump. Use of a more efficient pump and insuring that the plate is grounded is the more common approach.

edit:
added Bosch replika made by Norris of Germany (made in Vaterland?) Not egg-xactly what op was looking for but nice to have all of the offerings in one place:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Sea...sp?Search=pump
from EME here (no affiliation with EME):
quote EME:
["Brand: Norris / VDO Technical Information: This is an exact replica replacement fuel pump for the 43mm diameter used on later K models and MOST R series. BMW Ref #'s 16 14 1 341 231 and 16 14 1 341 730 (suppressed), and 16 14 1 464 696.
This pump is manufactured by Norris GMBH, Germany using the same technical drawing from Siemens VDO, the original equipment supplier to BMW. Same Form / Fit / Function . Exact Fit Replacement. New check valve prevents pressure leak down; ensures quick starts and no stalls. Pump Diameter 43mm"]
end quote
----
Justplainray said:
["one of these Ford 4 cylinder pumps in a K100 RT I owned.
installed it in 2000 and ran over 50k on it, it is still in service.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATX-E2390/?rtype=10

I machined an adapter ring to mount it in the tank where the original pump was mounted.

most all of these pumps are functionally interchangable,
if you can work out the details of mounting the pump.

justplainray"]

50k miles testing gives confidence. Nice that it comes as a kit. VR

vintagerider screwed with this post 06-29-2010 at 09:13 PM
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:59 PM   #7
crackhead OP
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Thanks alot for the info. Great helpful post.. I appreciate it..
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:47 AM   #8
JimVonBaden
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Or, save yourself the hassle, and buy this: http://www.beemerboneyard.com/16141341231rk.html

Jim
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:59 AM   #9
krider08
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Hi Jim
Have u tried the BeemerBoneYard fuel pump set?
I'm thinking of getting one of these for my aged 1100gs and am worried about fittings?
Cheers
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:07 AM   #10
BluByU
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I did the http://www.beemerboneyard.com/16141341231rk.html deal on my 1100GS, works great. easy r&r. only issue is that it is a bit louder than the original pump well until the original got real loud and began to fail

The boneyard kit is a complete setup no worries
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Old 06-26-2010, 09:20 AM   #11
Pekkavee
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Bosch number 0580 314 068 fits and works fine
It is used in Audi A4, A6, 100 and some others.
It has specs 110 l/h and 3 Bar.

Pekka

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Old 06-26-2010, 06:59 PM   #12
Mackinac76
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Beemerboneyard fuel pump

I, too, used the Beemerboneyard replacement kit. Mine seems to be pretty quiet. The instructions are a bit marginal, but in all-in-all, it was a good experience.
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:40 PM   #13
Ricardo Kuhn
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I have use a VW pump from a 91' Jetta for about 10 years with out any problems, the pump shape and body are pretty much the same the only thing to modified is the electrical connectors (5 minutes at most)

Cost used about $35 to $40 dollars
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:51 PM   #14
crackhead OP
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The more I look at it, the better the beemerboneyard deal looks..
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Old 06-27-2010, 10:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagerider
Many fuel pumps will work. Think flow rate not just form factor. There is no direct replacement for the VDO pump used in the R11xx that comes off the shelf ready to install, although many pumps from 1986-1996 GM products come pretty close to the 100 lph capacity and work very well with some patience and extra mounting parts. There are also universal pumps available. Many auto pumps are designed with 100 lph flow rate at 45 psi which is what you need. The key is to get a pump of similar capacity but also to manage the plumbing and electrical connections for swap over. Do not expect to simply buy an over-the counter automotive pump kit that is ready to install. Be particular on the pump manufacturer. Spend a bit more and get an alcohol tolerant pump. You will need the following:
  • pump designed to deliver ~100lph with an external regular set to 45 psi (this is different from the "max head pressure on the pump- see below),
  • pump which fits the bmw bracket
  • can be set up with 5/16" hose barb output
  • a matching rubber damper to fit between the end of the pump and the bmw pump support
  • suitable fuel-resistant electrical wiring and connectors i.e to adapt bmw oem ring terminals to more common spade slip on
  • suitable pump inlet screen that fits the new pump inlet port, fits through the rubber damper, does not interfere with the fuel sender
  • a pump made in Germany or U.S.A by a reputable pump manufacturer such as Pierburgh (used on Mercedes) or Walbro (U.S.A) or BOSCH Don't bother installing Chinese pumps
  • a pump with a low electrical demand and one which won't be ruined by running low on fuel (many vane (turbine) style pumps meet this criteria. Walbros are metal positive gear pumps, so if you use one of those then try not to run the tank too low or too often. Some replacements draw as much as 15 amps. The lower the current draw the better. Airtex and Carter are questionable.
Ok, if you have some patience then you will find what you need and may even end up with a better pump then what BMW sells. Many fuel pump specialists will help you find a quality universal pump and supply you with suitable additional parts. The effort can be rewarding because you can end up with a higher quality pump, possibly with extended warranty or an equivalent to the $50 VDO pump at a fair market price. You can spend a bit more and specify an alcohol tolerant pump and have far fewer reliability problems.

Helpful facts:
On the R11xx a slip on rubber damper is used between the pump suction end and the pump plate, Therefore, you need also to have a rubber damper which fits both the bmw mount and the new pump. The replacement pumps that work are often 37mm diameter instead the original 43mm VDO diameter, so the bmw rubber damper will not fit.

Prefilter: The bmw mount is designed for an offset inlet . Remove the VDO fuel screen by prying it off with a screw driver. You will see the teardrop shape of the VDO rubber and how the VDO inlet port is off-set. So select a pump that also has an offset inlet or modify the bmw support to fit a centered port inlet.

The BMW/VDO inlet filter screen most likely will not fit your new pump. Buy a suitable filter screen when you select the pump so you don't have to hunt one down later

The replacement pump motor connections are often slip on rather than ring terminal so you must add a bit of fuel proof wire fitted with suitable fuel proof connectors.

Auto parts stores sell pumps by by make and model. Often they do not have the specifications of what they are selling. Pumps that look the same may not work because they may be designed as pre-pumps (delivering only 10 psi). Do not ask the average auto parts guy to merely find you a pump with similar form factor. If you think that you have found a pump that will work, call the distributor to get the specs before you continue.

All about flow design and "max head pressure":

The R11xx specification is 100 liters per hour at 45 psi (3 bar). Many vehicles have this same specification. Many pumps from 1986-1996 GM products come pretty close to the 100 lph capacity and do fit. Be aware that if you install a 255 lph pump for example, it will work but you will over-run your bikes regulator. Eventually the regulator spring may weaken from the excess flow. If that happens you will need to install a frame mounted adjustable regulator and new external plumbing. Avoid using pumps with high flow rates.

Max head pressure:
Most pumps have a relief valve that is set to some value higher than the fuel system operating pressure. These act as emergency relief valves in case the fuel filter become plugged or the vehicle regulator is stuck closed. Many riders have heard this loud squeal from the VDO pump. While the noise can be the bearings it can also be the relief valve on the pump opening. A relief valve set to 90 psi will work fine in your bike, the pump will not pressurize the bmw system above what the bmw regulator allows unless it over-runs the regulator from to much flow or if the filter clogs. Having a pump with an internal relief valve set at 55 psi-65 psi is therefore more desirable than one set to 90 psi, but not critical.

Pumps have flow delivery graphs and are designed for a certain operating range.

Obviously the flow rate is affected by the operating system pressure set by the vehicle regulator. Looking at the flow graph for a particular pump you will see flow rate charted against pressure. Locate the 100 lph flow rate or equivalent GPH and that gives you an idea of the design rating. Most fuel pump distributors and manufacturers post the fuel delivery graph on the web. Rule out any pump which is delivering over 130 lph at 50 psi unless you add an external frame mounted adjustable. regulator

Many, but not all auto stores can tell you the design capacity of the pumps that they sell. Again, 100 LPH at ~45-50 psi is what you are shooting for. A vane style pump will run quieter and without pulsations. Metal gear pumps do work in the BMW application. Buy quality brands only. Although most won't bother, do not rule out upgrading to a frame mounted adjustable regulator because it does widen the range of suitable pumps, gives better fuel regulation with equal pressure to both injectors, improves reliability and allows for tuning changes by giving you the ability to control fuel pressure precisely.

Justplainray said:
["one of these Ford 4 cylinder pumps in a K100 RT I owned.
installed it in 2000 and ran over 50k on it, it is still in service.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATX-E2390/?rtype=10

I machined an adapter ring to mount it in the tank where the original pump was mounted.

most all of these pumps are functionally interchangable,
if you can work out the details of mounting the pump.

justplainray"]

Helpful post and with 50k miles testing. Nice that it comes as a kit. Airtex can be had for much less if you shop around. Summit does not give enough info on this pump, but airtex can probably supply the design flow rate and other specs. It looks like a plastic van type. I would also want to know the alcohol tolerance, warranty and current draw. Bosch may be a better value in the $100 price range.
Lot's of great info. thanks.
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