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Old 07-28-2011, 12:40 PM   #7486
fbj913
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Originally Posted by urquell View Post
I thought I would add my experiences to the discussion about stalling. I have had my Tiger 800 for several weeks, and have put on about 1500 miles. I ride mostly paved roads, a few gravel roads, and not much dirt or dust. On two separate occasions I have had issues with stalling.

On both occasions I had been riding on relatively hot days (85 degrees F) for several hours. I had no issues with overheating. I rode down off the Blue Ridge Mountains, using intermittent engine braking to regulate my speed for several miles. About ten miles after rolling down off the mountains I had my first need to slow way down or stop the bike, and this is when I stalled for the first time on both occasions. Thereafter I began to stall every time I rolled off the throttle.

The bike would not idle at 800 rpm. Every time I rolled off the throttle, the tachometer would plummet to zero and the bike would stall. It happened while stopped, either in neutral or in gear with the clutch disengaged. It even happened while slowing for tight turns unless I kept the engine rpm's up. It became a significant safety issue, as at times I had to clutch and rev the engine to keep the bike from stalling in intersections. It was never related to blipping the throttle. The bike always restarted, but if I did not immediately roll on the throttle, the bike would stall again. After shutting down the bike for thirty minutes, the problem disappeared each time.

I communicated with my dealer and they were not able to help at all. I communicated with Triumph USA. They are unable to help until I bring the bike in to a dealer for analysis, but they did not admit to any particular or widespread problems with stalling. When I mentioned all of the forum reports regarding this issue, they discounted them as often inaccurate or misleading by nature. I guess this might be true to some degree, but I can assure you that when the stalling problem is happening to you, the internet reports take on added significance.

I am awaiting delivery of a DealerTool to read the diagnostic codes. I will then schedule a dealer appointment for service. I will post an update once I have more information.
I would take it directly to the dealer. The problem with it being a software issue is that the DealerTool will most likely not show that anything is wrong. At least thats what has happened with mine. The computer doesnt know that anything is wrong. Triumph is well aware of the issue. My dealer has been working directly with them and even had my bike hooked up to Triumph Corporate over the internet to run tests.
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:58 PM   #7487
Adv Grifter
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Originally Posted by markbvt View Post
The more important question is how much of that wattage is consumed by the motorcycle itself while running. Or phrased another way, how many spare watts do we actually have to work with before the battery starts draining?
I don't know the answer to this, although I do know it's quite a bit more than my heated grips and heated vest draw.
--mark
Good point Mark. The "How much do we have to work with" part is all that really matters here. a rough guesstimate (I'm too lazy to look up "facts" ) will show how many Watts the bike needs to run and operate basic standard equipment ... then go from there to figure how many spare Watts you've got.

My out of the blue "guesstimate" is about 350 to 400 free Watts. If you spend a lot of time idling in traffic .... this could change a bit. But normal highway riding this should be in the ball park.

Modern Aux lights are now fairly low draw. My Gerbing Jacket draws 77 watts at 100%, Heated grips? Depends ... my Symtec ones draw about 35 Watts on "HI" setting. Things like GPS, I-Tunes, mostly require very low current.

A key thing to look at if running a lot of electrical accessories would be the Tiger's Battery. I hope it's not the woefully underspec'd one on the Tiger 1050. That battery led to several elec. issues for Tiger 1050 owners.
How many Amp Hour is the standard battery? The Tiger 1050 I believe is just 12 AH. A better replacement is 14 AH, which is what most 1050 owners are using now. The 1050 only puts out something like 450 Watts total, and there have been Stator and battery related problems.
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:25 PM   #7488
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lift with hold down

[
Quote:
QUOTE=TerraUnFirma;16499103]I have been lifting mine with a motorcycle jack and no problems so far. It does deflect a little, but seems pretty rugged.

YMMV!

Cheers,
[/QUOTE]

Needed to hold the front down. I set the lift at the support point or attachment location of the composite skid plate.
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:21 PM   #7489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Good point Mark. The "How much do we have to work with" part is all that really matters here. a rough guesstimate (I'm too lazy to look up "facts" ) will show how many Watts the bike needs to run and operate basic standard equipment ... then go from there to figure how many spare Watts you've got.

My out of the blue "guesstimate" is about 350 to 400 free Watts. If you spend a lot of time idling in traffic .... this could change a bit. But normal highway riding this should be in the ball park.

Modern Aux lights are now fairly low draw. My Gerbing Jacket draws 77 watts at 100%, Heated grips? Depends ... my Symtec ones draw about 35 Watts on "HI" setting. Things like GPS, I-Tunes, mostly require very low current.

A key thing to look at if running a lot of electrical accessories would be the Tiger's Battery. I hope it's not the woefully underspec'd one on the Tiger 1050. That battery led to several elec. issues for Tiger 1050 owners.
How many Amp Hour is the standard battery? The Tiger 1050 I believe is just 12 AH. A better replacement is 14 AH, which is what most 1050 owners are using now. The 1050 only puts out something like 450 Watts total, and there have been Stator and battery related problems.
I am sure the Triumph is just like most every other street bike. The stator cranks out AC power by running its coils through a magnetic field. A portion of that AC power is syphoned off to power the engine through the coil's to provide spark to the plugs.

The majority goes to the Regulator/rectifier to be converted to 12v DC power to charge the battery. It would be a rare bird that generates more than 15V to the battery as it would boil the water out or damage the battery. Yes RPM's matter as it dictates how fast the stator spins. My guesstimate at idle, no less than 13.8v, as that is the norm on most bikes.

Your lights, heated grips and all of the add on accessories run on 12 V power.

I suspect that the computers run on low voltage power, not sure about Fuel injection. In any case it will be a small proportion of the Stators output. You are not going to get a finite number unless you can determine how much of the power is syphoned off for the electrics to power the engines electronics, though I guess you can measure the hot wire to the coil or measured at the pick up coil. There is some resistance pushing through the wiring, both on the AC and DC side. If you had Canbus, you would not have as much wastage.

The bottom line is that you should have plenty, certainly more than most, unless you intend to light up Yankee Stadium.
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:23 PM   #7490
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Quote:

Needed to hold the front down. I set the lift at the support point or attachment location of the composite skid plate.
That is good to see. I will be using my lift so the front end will be secured in a wheel chock and tied down so I should be good.

Thanks
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:26 PM   #7491
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Thanks for posting your results! Great to hear the bikes no longer stalling and running well. The AK shop did a nice job!

I was shocked to see the amount of dirt that had gotten by your air filter
(I think on just one bike?) and into the throttle bodies. I'm really surprised that permanent damage was not done ... that was A LOT of dirt being sucked straight into the motor. Can't be good for long term health of that bike's motor. That area should be pristine. For those who've not read your RR, here is the filter and air box from the report:


Enjoying your ride report ... very impressive adventure!

One tip on paper air filters : Since these Tiger filters seem to clog up so quickly ....
1. I would carry a spare filter.
2. If you find a really dirt filter ... just pull it out and tap it on the edge to release some of the dirt. Then use compressed air (or vacuum it) to clean it up a bit.

I don't think its wise to try to wash a paper filter ... but careful work with compressed air/vacuum could help. Paper filters are the very worst choice for any vehicle going off road. Dirt bike racers/riders figured this out 40 years ago. An oiled foam filter is the way to go.

Another tip would be to put a small bead of waterproof grease around the rubber sealing edge of your filter before install. This may help keep dirt at bay. I did this on my DL1000 Vstrom and it helped A LOT. The Vstrom had the same problem with massive ingress of dirt past the filter. (also a useless paper filter) I rode thousands of miles in Baja and Copper Canyon, very dusty conditions.

Good luck and continued safe riding.
According to what we were told....although the filters looked like crap the issue with the Throttle Bodies was not directly related to the filters. This is another issue. So, even if you do not really go off road like we are doing up here...there still might be a correlation. WE took the bikes on another really dusty dirt/gravel road yesterday so we will see if anything comes up. We have more dirt to come too.
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:32 PM   #7492
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stalling with heat,

[QUOTE=urquell;16499651]I thought I would add my experiences to the discussion about stalling. I have had my Tiger 800 for several weeks, and have put on about 1500 miles. I ride mostly paved roads, a few gravel roads, and not much dirt or dust. On two separate occasions I have had issues with stalling.


I had the stalling issue also. I had my dealer installer the Arrow pipe tune available for the bike. This seems to eliminated my stalling. I still had the stock pipe and feel it improved the way the bike ran.

YMMV
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:06 PM   #7493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
I am sure the Triumph is just like most every other street bike. The stator cranks out AC power by running its coils through a magnetic field. A portion of that AC power is syphoned off to power the engine through the coil's to provide spark to the plugs.

The majority goes to the Regulator/rectifier to be converted to 12v DC power to charge the battery. It would be a rare bird that generates more than 15V to the battery as it would boil the water out or damage the battery. Yes RPM's matter as it dictates how fast the stator spins. My guesstimate at idle, no less than 13.8v, as that is the norm on most bikes.

Your lights, heated grips and all of the add on accessories run on 12 V power.

I suspect that the computers run on low voltage power, not sure about Fuel injection. In any case it will be a small proportion of the Stators output. You are not going to get a finite number unless you can determine how much of the power is syphoned off for the electrics to power the engines electronics, though I guess you can measure the hot wire to the coil or measured at the pick up coil. Some is wasted pushing through the wiring, both on the AC and DC side. If you had Canbus, you would not have as much wastage.

The bottom line is that you should have plenty, certainly more than most, unless you intend to light up Yankee Stadium.
I'm pretty sure he meant things like the headlights, tail light, brake light, blinkers, dash lights, etc, because those will consume somewhere around 100W, probably more. I have no desire to do the math out.
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:13 PM   #7494
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Me either. Just keep in mind there is AC power needed to spark the motor ( on a F800gs, I am told over 100 watts) and resistance in the wiring for the rest. The Triumph gross number is a lot. If you got a pool going on, my guess is about 480 watts total.
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:49 PM   #7495
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Originally Posted by blacktiger View Post
No that big nut on top is basically to hold on the top yoke...

Thanks so much for your description, that's a huge help!
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Old 07-28-2011, 05:01 PM   #7496
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
I suspect that the computers run on low voltage power, not sure about Fuel injection. In any case it will be a small proportion of the Stators output.

If you had Canbus, you would not have as much wastage.

The bottom line is that you should have plenty, certainly more than most, unless you intend to light up Yankee Stadium.
645 Watts is more output than any other bike i've owned (out of 50 or so)

Some of the load is variable ... like turn signals, brake lights, fuel pumps, servo motors running the throttle body flappers ... the electronics like the ECM, ABS and such should all be very low voltage as you indicate.

I'm not clear on exactly how an ABS modulator works or how much power it requres ... but a replacement on my Tiger 1050 costs over $1500. (no, didn't need one, just happened to notice)

BTW, I believe the Tiger 800 does have some form of CANbus system. The Tiger 1050 does. Kildare man has a pretty good grasp of this, he would know.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:35 AM   #7497
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Originally Posted by urquell View Post
I am awaiting delivery of a DealerTool to read the diagnostic codes. I will then schedule a dealer appointment for service. I will post an update once I have more information.
FYI this may be pointless as if you do not have the check engine light on (or had it come on at some point), it's unlikely that there will be any fault codes stored.
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:38 AM   #7498
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Tiger 800 Stalling

Thanks. I did not realize that there might not be any diagnostic codes in this situation. I had already ordered the DealerTool before my most recent episode. It should be here today or tomorrow, so I won't have to delay bringing the bike in for service. I wanted the tool anyway, because I just like to get information on my own when I can, and also I wanted to be able to change the service interval. My dealer likes to set it at 3,000 miles for routine service intervals. I will let my dealer service department know about the Arrow tune. Thanks.

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Old 07-29-2011, 07:04 AM   #7499
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Originally Posted by FlatlanderInVT View Post
I'm pretty sure he meant things like the headlights, tail light, brake light, blinkers, dash lights, etc, because those will consume somewhere around 100W, probably more. I have no desire to do the math out.
The headlights alone will consume 110W (on low beam). Plus all the other lights. Plus EFI and ABS ECUs. Plus throttle body servos. Plus fuel pump. Plus whatever else I'm forgetting.

For what it's worth, the instructions that come with Triumph's heated grips and fog lights state that if GPS, grips, and lights are turned on (drawing a combined 165W), there's no power left over for other accessories. Granted, that's not going to be true because Triumph is leaving a safety margin to legally cover their ass, so let's say there's actually about 200W free. And let's go with the 550W (@ 12 volts) rating for the alternator. So the bike potentially uses around 350W? That seems a bit high...

It would be interesting to know just how big a safety margin Triumph is leaving. Perhaps some intrepid soul would care to hook up a crapload of accessories to their bike and turn them on one by one while watching the multimeter to see what the voltage is across the battery terminals.

--mark
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Old 07-29-2011, 07:35 AM   #7500
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
I see by your list of antique bikes you've not owned any dirt bikes ... and since it's always WET in the UK, I doubt you've got much experience riding in heavy dust.
Ahem, XR250, XR600, KTM600LC4. And you could argue that the XL185 and the R100GS are dirt bikes because I used them both on dirt roads.
I do bow to your greater knowledge on dust although I do ride in foreign, dusty lands here in Europe from time to time.
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