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Old 06-29-2012, 10:47 AM   #13246
RichardU
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I'm one of those people who actually rides the XC off-pavement -- about one fourth of the three thousand miles I've put on mine. Another fourth has been on extremely twisty pavement.

I also have a Hypermotard so I know about street tires and quick steering. I would say, yes, the steering is quicker on 17" wheels, but no, it doesn't matter on the street. Even on the tightest twisties I can flip the 21" wheel as fast as I need to for peg-dragging speeds. It may feel weird, but once you are used to it, it will not slow you down.

That said, nothing changes the fact that you can plug a tubeless tire.
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:50 AM   #13247
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Originally Posted by helotaxi View Post
I'd be interested in seeing an actual weight comparison between the two. The (slightly) smaller front wheel will make a difference in handling, but I would wager that the different suspension geometry makes a much more significant difference.
As far as I understand the different geometry is to just compensate for the larger wheel. Btw: no problem in dropping the front of the XC a bit more to make it more aggressive, or raising the rear of the Roadie to do the same.

It's still that a 21" wheel / tire will not give you the handling of a 19" wheel / tire combination. There is not much you can do about that other than putting different wheels on.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:47 AM   #13248
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Originally Posted by browneye View Post
Is the road model significantly better for road than the XC? I'm still trying to decide which model to buy. I expect 90/10 for road. And I want a really good road bike for 2 up touring. If either is superior for that then that is the way I would go. I keep thinking I should be going with GS or Tenere for 2-up, but I really like the lightweight and handling of the Tiger, not to mention it costs a lot less. Power wise I know it will be fine.

I'm always skeptical about owners of XC's that say how great they are in the twisties but admit they've never been on a sportbike. And likewise, how good they are offroad when admittedly they have very little dirt experience.

In just a spin around the block I found the XC to have slower turn in than the roadie. I can imagine a series of sweepers would have you struggling with getting the bike to lay over and turn. I'm not real excited about the wide bars either.

There are too many owners that have bought the wrong model and want to change. I don't want to be one of them.

Have you ridden both models to compare? That you have significant road experience lends credence to your opinion. Thanks!
If a road bike for 2 up touring is your primary decision point between these two adventure bikes (because Triumph has better road bikes for 2 up touring than the Tigers), I think the XC is going to be the winner.

I have ridden both on-road and off-road and while the F diameter does affect turn in the difference is insignificant. Your entry speed needs to be slightly lower or more accurately you want to get more weight to the front when you turn in, but through the rest of the turn they are pretty much the same.

The primary reason many feel the XC is as competent on the road is primarily because the suspension itself is better on the XC - everyone who understands the interplay of the components and handling, attributes the similarity between the two on the road to the suspension of the XC overcoming the F diameters.

For 2 up touring as ridden off the showroom floor I believe the XC would be the better choice even for a 90/10 usage. In a 2 up situation even on the road and in twisties the better suspension is going to matter much more than a 19 vs 21 F diameter. I just can't imagine in a 2 up situation on twisties trying to find the difference in turn in between the two different diameter F wheels. Unless your pillion wants you to be much more aggressive than any I have had or known.

If you are willing to improve the suspension then the difference in F diameter will become more apparent.

I think the choosing of a bike for 2 up on the road is a different decision than a bike for twisties.

I have to say for 2 up touring at a 90/10 usage, I am not sure why anyone would pick an adventure bike. Any bike can handle 90/10, you don't need an adventure bike for that.

Quote:
And I want a really good road bike for 2 up touring. If either is superior for that then that is the way I would go.
Get the Trophy SE or the Sprint GT, I think you would be much happier.
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Old 06-29-2012, 12:11 PM   #13249
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I don't get all the fuss about 21" front wheel. They have SuperMoto races with 21" fronts mounted. A good rider with a 21" front can run circles around an a average rider with a 17".
If you feel like the 21" front is holding you back, then you should be riding on a track. I rode all over Deals Gap with knobbies on my XC & never got passed by anybody. I was able to stay with sportbikes no problem. I've always been the kind of rider that adjust my style to accommodate whatever bike/conditions I'm riding. People nowadays are way to spoiled.
You just proved that it's really all about the rider. I like my XC because it does all I want a bike to do. The limitation is me, not the bike. I've never scraped a peg. Is that the bike or the rider? Not sure wheel size has anything to do with anything. Rossi could beat me through deals gap on a Ural with a flat, with me on an R1
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:17 PM   #13250
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You just proved that it's really all about the rider. I like my XC because it does all I want a bike to do. The limitation is me, not the bike. I've never scraped a peg. Is that the bike or the rider? Not sure wheel size has anything to do with anything. Rossi could beat me through deals gap on a Ural with a flat, with me on an R1
That's the best thing said so far on the continuing debate, especially the Rossi comment, laughed out loud at that one, thanks.

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Old 06-29-2012, 01:17 PM   #13251
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Hey all - does anybody know how much the normal centerstand raises the rear wheel off the ground on a Roadie?

cug screwed with this post 06-29-2012 at 01:21 PM Reason: Added clarification: rear wheel
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:41 PM   #13252
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That's the best thing said so far on the continuing debate, especially the Rossi comment, laughed out loud at that one, thanks.

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Old 06-29-2012, 01:44 PM   #13253
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Hey all - does anybody know how much the normal centerstand raises the rear wheel off the ground on a Roadie?
Looks to be about an 1 1/2", with stock Pirelli Scorps.

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Old 06-29-2012, 01:50 PM   #13254
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Every single bit helps when you are as slow as I am ...
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:51 PM   #13255
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Looks to be about an 1 1/2", with stock Pirelli Scorps.
Excellent. That would mean that if I raise the rear by 15mm it'll still be off the ground. I don't have a centerstand yet, therefore had to ask here.
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Old 06-29-2012, 02:41 PM   #13256
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Originally Posted by turboICE View Post
If a road bike for 2 up touring is your primary decision point between these two adventure bikes (because Triumph has better road bikes for 2 up touring than the Tigers), I think the XC is going to be the winner.

I have ridden both on-road and off-road and while the F diameter does affect turn in the difference is insignificant. Your entry speed needs to be slightly lower or more accurately you want to get more weight to the front when you turn in, but through the rest of the turn they are pretty much the same.

The primary reason many feel the XC is as competent on the road is primarily because the suspension itself is better on the XC - everyone who understands the interplay of the components and handling, attributes the similarity between the two on the road to the suspension of the XC overcoming the F diameters.

For 2 up touring as ridden off the showroom floor I believe the XC would be the better choice even for a 90/10 usage. In a 2 up situation even on the road and in twisties the better suspension is going to matter much more than a 19 vs 21 F diameter. I just can't imagine in a 2 up situation on twisties trying to find the difference in turn in between the two different diameter F wheels. Unless your pillion wants you to be much more aggressive than any I have had or known.

If you are willing to improve the suspension then the difference in F diameter will become more apparent.

I think the choosing of a bike for 2 up on the road is a different decision than a bike for twisties.

I have to say for 2 up touring at a 90/10 usage, I am not sure why anyone would pick an adventure bike. Any bike can handle 90/10, you don't need an adventure bike for that.

Get the Trophy SE or the Sprint GT, I think you would be much happier.
I really appreciate all the feedback from everyone. It has helped me sort through the differences of the two models. Turbo's post here, as well as some of the others, and the conversations I've had with my other riding buddies, has confirmed what I suspected, that the road performance of the XC will be sufficient while provide a cushier ride, and something more adventure oriented for my solo trips. Plus, coming from a dirtbike background, it just makes sense for me to have a bike that can manage more aggressive terrain. We tend to seek this stuff out.

And I know it sounds confusing, or that I have an odd priority of how or what I am trying to make the choice on.

The reason I keep asking about two up is because the wife has started coming along on some road trips on the Versys and it's pretty cramped, plus no extra room for some gear for some light touring and overnighting. So that was part of the reason to look for a bigger bike. But she doesn't go that often so when she doesn't I wanted a bike that would be a better adventure bike than the Versys, and something for over-the-road in a way that my Husky TE630 is not. Hence my initial strong interest in the T800 roadie. And hence why I had already ruled out the sport tourers and road bikes, attractive as some of them are. I also wanted something fun for around town, afternoon recreation riding, and something with a little more pizzaz. The tigers have that, and they're light and easy to ride.

I was also very interested in the new Super Tenere, as well as R1200GS, Ducati Multistrada, Triumph Tiger, and KTM 990. The 'strada got scratched pretty quick, it's too much $$ and too finicky, and it's really for all road going. The Tiger 1050 is also all-road, although they are a relative bargain these days. The KTM is the other way, fantastic offroad, but said to be not so hot for 2-up or long road trips. Plus it has its own issues with finicky and difficult maintenance, fueling, and it's heavy. The weight thing is what swayed me away from the Tenere and the GS. I REALLY liked the Tenere, but geez, it's a big bike. The GS is not so bad, and I would probably be happy with one, they are great 2-up trip bikes, but they don't give me much excitement. They are just too, well, bland.

So that brought me back to the Triumph. Lightweight (relatively), smaller adventure bike that would take two riders and some gear, fun to ride etc...well I don't have to explain it to you guys. Then I test rode it and whoa, it went from 'interesting' to 'gotta have'. I was blown away. So much so I don't even want to ride my Versys any more. It's that much better. Of course it's twice the money too.

A lot of the ADV'rs I ride with do a lot of dirt roads, and they tend to get into some more difficult sections and I just know the XC is the better tool for that. But the primary use for me will be as a streetbike, occasionally 2-up. So I wanted to make sure the softer suspension and 21" front wheel wasn't going to detract from my primary usage. And of course we slow down a lot with a passenger, that's just a given. I just didn't want a lethargic, wallowing marshmello when touring with the wife. Obviously the XC is going to do great for what we want.

I think I would have been happy with a roadie, but the XC is going to check ALL the boxes. So I'm picking up a new white one tomorrow.

Thanks again, it's a great community of riders.
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:39 PM   #13257
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Good choice. They're quite versatile....on and off road.

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Old 06-29-2012, 05:14 PM   #13258
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Originally Posted by browneye View Post
Is the road model significantly better for road than the XC? I'm still trying to decide which model to buy. I expect 90/10 for road. And I want a really good road bike for 2 up touring. If either is superior for that then that is the way I would go. I keep thinking I should be going with GS or Tenere for 2-up, but I really like the lightweight and handling of the Tiger, not to mention it costs a lot less. Power wise I know it will be fine.

I'm always skeptical about owners of XC's that say how great they are in the twisties but admit they've never been on a sportbike. And likewise, how good they are offroad when admittedly they have very little dirt experience.

In just a spin around the block I found the XC to have slower turn in than the roadie. I can imagine a series of sweepers would have you struggling with getting the bike to lay over and turn. I'm not real excited about the wide bars either.

There are too many owners that have bought the wrong model and want to change. I don't want to be one of them.

Have you ridden both models to compare? That you have significant road experience lends credence to your opinion. Thanks!
I know at this point you've pretty much answered your questions, but this is the first chance I've had to get back here.

Truthfully I think you're *almost* splitting hairs on both accounts, meaning that although the XC is a better equipped motorcycle for off pavement use it's not so much better than you'd feel significantly lacking on a roadie in the places you would typically take a bike this size. There's always the exception like the bloke down under who takes a V-Strom to places I'd have trouble taking my Jeep Rubicon , but for the rest of us I believe either version of the Tiger would be very good both on and off pavement. Of course the XC would be better off pavement. It probably has a bit wider gap in performance compared to the roadie when the off pavement stuff gets rough than the roadie has on the XC on tight, twisty pavement.

At least when comparing stock bike to stock bike.

But no one ever leaves a bike completely stock. And that's where I think a bit more difference comes into play. The new Michelin Pilot Road 3 Trails available in Roadie sizes are fantastic street tires. You can't get a 21" version. Since 90/10 tires are mostly an off pavement joke, the PR3T's probably don't give up a hell of a lot off pavement to the Pirellis my Tiger came with, though I have only had a few miles off pavement since I installed the PR3T and am probably not a competent enough off pavement rider to tell you exactly how much difference exists. But I am a very competent on pavement rider, and my bike sees just as much bad weather as it does good weather. I do not enjoy the Pirellis in the rain, and even worse in the cold rain. Knobbies of any kind are even worse. The Michelins definitely improve wet pavement grip, even more so than they do dry pavement grip. The XC's suspension that certainly gives it an advantage off pavement is potentially a bit worse for aggressive cornering on pavement, but it depends on road conditions. However, that same suspension is more plush and comfortable for long days.

What it all comes down to is each one is a compromise, a conglomeration of certain characteristics in a class of motorcycle that is by it's very design a compromise and conglomeration of many individual classes of bike. Any time you build a motorcycle to be a sport bike, touring bike, off road bike, two up bike, pack mule, etc., you are getting a compromise of all of these things, and it shows. But Triumph has managed to come up with a VERY well rounded package. One has a bit more dirt slant, one has a bit more pavement slant. Both lose to a sport bike in the twisties, or a dirt bike when off pavement, or a touring bike when traveling. How much or how little you want to give up in each of these categories should guide you to the right decision. Personally, being an aggressive rider on pavement and a somewhat timid rider off pavement the choice was easy and clear. The tubes and spokes of the XC made the choice even easier. The roadie has kept me relatively comfortable on multi thousand mile trips, kept me well entertained on twisty pavement, and is capable of delivering more than I know how to ask of it off pavement. It was as close to the "right" bike as I could get. Unfortunately my SO doesn't necessarily agree, as she misses the GL1800 I sold a couple of months ago. If you want your wife to be happy on a Tiger, don't EVER let her ride on the back of a modern Gold Wing
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:29 PM   #13259
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Just one more data point on tire choices.

Below are both Anakee2 fronts, the first a 100/90-19 bias-ply and the second a 110/80-19 radial. The amount of tread on the narrower tire did not run very far up the side and all tire markings at the edge were completely erased in a couple hundred miles, no chicken strip, and way, way before erasing markings on the rear. The wider tire had what I felt to be a much great wrap around of the tread and I cannot erase the markings at the edge and still have a good chicken strip, at least on the front, which makes me feel more comfortable. I've also seen the Anakee2 in 90/90-21 and it appears to have even less tread wrap-around than the 100/90, and it too only comes in bias-ply. However neither tire actually slipped on me, so I can't say I rolled over the edge on the narrower tire.

The mileage difference, however, is unbelievable. The bias-ply is shown at 2,400 miles and the radial at 6,000 miles. Same rider, same roads.



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Old 06-29-2012, 06:30 PM   #13260
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Bueller - I laughed when I read your comment about not letting your wife on the back of a modern Goldwing and then getting her on a Triumph. I am in the same situation. Have had two GL1800's now and really like them for their intended purpose but will be selling and going to a Tiger XC next year. Wifey will not be quite happy but then again she is going less on the bike than she used to in previous years.
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