ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > Parallel Universe
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-13-2010, 10:35 AM   #1
WM O'Borneo OP
Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hinckley
Oddometer: 31
F800GS cutting out - fuel pump problem

Thought I should post this info about a strange problem - now fixed - in case it helps anyone else.

Back end of last year I was having a problem with the engine cutting out while riding along on a constant throttle. After three seconds (always the same) it would spring back into life only to do it again a few minutes or seconds later. The longer it went on the shorter the gap. The tacho would hold steady slowing gently with the speed until the engine picked up. If I pulled in the clutch the engine would just stop and wouldn't restart on the button until the three seconds was up.

It always happened on a warm day 16 C or higher and always happened when the fuel tank was getting low - maybe 80 miles to empty and always after a couple of hours riding. Once it started it kept on doing it until I stopped for the night or filled up with fuel (this "fixed" it every time). I swapped the fuel pump relay but that didn't make any difference and took it to a BMW dealer to check the diagnostics but there was nothing from that. Then came winter so it was too cold to happen. When the hot weather returned so did the problem so back to the supplying dealer. A fault was found and fixed with the fuel tank breather but that didn't solve the problem. After a good long discussion the fuel pump was replaced and the problem disapeared.

Looking back the solution was pretty obvious but then it often is.
What gets hotter on a warm day that is affected by the level of fuel in the tank ? - something in the tank ? that will be the fuel pump then!
I guess the pump was running out of the allowed range to keep up the fuel pressure and the electronics were going through a reset of some sort to try and sort it out hence the three seconds every time.
WM O'Borneo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 12:22 PM   #2
Motowalt
UNSTOPPABLE!
 
Motowalt's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Texas Hill Country
Oddometer: 423
From reading all the similar threads here, and experiencing the same thing on my 09, I think it's time for BMW to enact a safety recall on the defective fuel pumps.
__________________
AMA
Motowalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 12:41 PM   #3
GeorgeinVA
Beemers Uber Alles
 
GeorgeinVA's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Manassas VA
Oddometer: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motowalt
From reading all the similar threads here, and experiencing the same thing on my 09, I think it's time for BMW to enact a safety recall on the defective fuel pumps.
BMW and others on this forum will blame; you, Sta-bil and "bad US gas" long before they admit they might have a problem. We have been through this with injectors and fuel gauge strips. To my knowledge BMW has never admitted to those as parts issues yet.
The best way to cause a positive change is to send your name vin copies of repair orders to BMW and the NHTSA(http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm). If we just talk amongst ourselves no one who can do anything will know.
__________________
Beemers Uber Alles
9248 Mike Garcia Drive
Manassas Va 20109
(571) 318 2472
Indie BMW Maintenance
www.beemersuberalles.com
GeorgeinVA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010, 08:05 PM   #4
JRWooden
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: The great state of confusion
Oddometer: 4,128
Both the fuel pump and the fuel pump controller electronics assby. have beeen superceeded with new part numbers...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................
JRWooden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010, 08:47 PM   #5
blatant
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: az
Oddometer: 531
so if this is a clear issue, why does every one that lives a desert or some miserably hot place not experience the headache?
blatant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 06:52 AM   #6
JoelWisman
Beastly Adventurer
 
JoelWisman's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: STL, MO, USA
Oddometer: 1,392
It's time for the NHTSA to enact a safety recall on USA gas because it does not work with fuel pumps that last forever without shit gas.

It's time for USA voters to enact a safety recall on USA politicians that have been bought and paid for by the corn lobby without also accepting bribes from the chemical lobby to do the right thing and mandate addatives that protect from corossion when ethinol, sulpher, and water mix.

This problem is occuring in 3% of bmw's motor cycle market, just the USA. Even brazil adds the correct additives to make ethinol safe when it absorbs water.


A pump with stainless or plastic internals would last longer here, but is softer and would not last as long in the other 97% of bmw's market.

The correct thing is for BMW to assume the USA government will never get anything right and ship shorter life pumps that are more corossion resistant to this market, but so far they have not done such.


And the problem is actually not as bad in hot dry places because the ethinol in the fuel picks up less water.

The controllers do have a higher failure rate then I would like to see, but the pumps are fantastic untill you try to pump sulpheric acid through them, what water, ethinol, sulpher, becomes in our fuel without proper addatives.

The solution at least is simple. Add 1oz of techron concentrate per gallon of fuel in the tank once every 1,500 to 3,000 miles and always before winter lay-up.

I've seen some bikes corode a pump to death 3 times in a year. I haven't seen a single pump failure in bikes getting techron regularly.

Of course congres could make it easy and mandate propper additives, but I wouldn't hold your breath for that.
__________________
Owned to date. Honda Aero 50, Honda Elite 80, Honda Elite 250x2, Suzuki Katana, Suzuki RF600, Yamaha YZF1000R, Kymco Xciting 500, Suzuki GS500, Suzuki Burgman 650, BMW F800GSx2, BMW S1000RR, Aprilia Scarabeo 200, Aprilia Caponord, Aprilia Sportcity 250
I love and miss you Jeneca and I'm sorry.
JoelWisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 08:12 AM   #7
AlanI
Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Oddometer: 201
I posted this in another thread but having read your post Joel it's worth posting again here.

The sad fact of life though is that this is an engine designed and built in Germany and therefore has to comply with the very strict European laws (which are getting stricter every year) in terms of emissions and fuel consumption. It stands to reason that manufacturers (in this instance BMW) in complying with these regulations can only produce and test their engines in their home markets and with the fuel, and probably more importantly, the quality of fuel readily available. They cannot possibly produce an engine that is going to run satisfactory within a country where it appears each state can throw into the mix whatever additives they feel like and where the quality of the fuel being sold is questionable
AlanI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 09:19 AM   #8
JRWooden
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: The great state of confusion
Oddometer: 4,128
Joel:

Do you have any idea what additives Brazil puts in their fuel to make it better? Is this where Chevron makes all their money?
JRWooden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 09:44 AM   #9
JoelWisman
Beastly Adventurer
 
JoelWisman's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: STL, MO, USA
Oddometer: 1,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden
Joel:

Do you have any idea what additives Brazil puts in their fuel to make it better? Is this where Chevron makes all their money?
I don't know what all additives brazil requires and it may well vary, but I'm told they require a small amount of isopropyl alcohol.

Isopropyly, responds differently to water then ethinol. Isopropyl bonds with water 20x stronger and then remains in solution with the gasoline.

This way water remains mixed in too low of a concentration to corode things and passes harmlessly out of the fuel system through the normal route.

Ethinol bonds with water, falls out of solution to the bottom of the tank, chemically combines with sulphur and a few other things, forms acids and eats the shit out of the fuel pump which throws off particles much smaller then the fuel filter can capture and them plugs the injectors. (fantastic run-on sentence).

Isopropyly alcohol in small ratios Is one of many ways to stop this, and no you can't use the stuff at the pharmacy, it's already saturated with water. If you see a fuel treatment that claims to treat ethinol fuel and has isopropyl alcohol in it, this is why.

Techron does it another way, it treats the metal and makes it more corossion resistant, that's why the benifits last beyond the tank of fuel it's mixed into.
__________________
Owned to date. Honda Aero 50, Honda Elite 80, Honda Elite 250x2, Suzuki Katana, Suzuki RF600, Yamaha YZF1000R, Kymco Xciting 500, Suzuki GS500, Suzuki Burgman 650, BMW F800GSx2, BMW S1000RR, Aprilia Scarabeo 200, Aprilia Caponord, Aprilia Sportcity 250
I love and miss you Jeneca and I'm sorry.
JoelWisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 01:04 PM   #10
GeorgeinVA
Beemers Uber Alles
 
GeorgeinVA's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Manassas VA
Oddometer: 603
"87,306 BMW motorcycles were delivered to customers in 2009, compared to 101,685 in 2008,"
"In the USA, BMW Motorrad’s third largest market, the market as a whole decreased by 41.6 %. Here 9,168 (previous year: 11,831)"
Look like over 10% to me.
pulled from http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcyc...ycle-sales.htm
__________________
Beemers Uber Alles
9248 Mike Garcia Drive
Manassas Va 20109
(571) 318 2472
Indie BMW Maintenance
www.beemersuberalles.com
GeorgeinVA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 02:27 PM   #11
JRWooden
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: The great state of confusion
Oddometer: 4,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
Isopropyly, responds differently to water then ethinol. Isopropyl bonds with water 20x stronger and then remains in solution with the gasoline.

This way water remains mixed in too low of a concentration to corode things and passes harmlessly out of the fuel system through the normal route. ...


.
Thanks Joel!

That may be the secret to Seafoam's success.
The MSDS for seafoam lists IPA (isopropyl alcohol that is, not India Pale Ale) as key component @ 10% - 20% of total...

http://www.seafoamsales.com/componen...2/view,folder/

Maybe I'll just find a chemical supply house that sells pure IPA ...
JRWooden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 02:32 PM   #12
JoelWisman
Beastly Adventurer
 
JoelWisman's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: STL, MO, USA
Oddometer: 1,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeinVA
"87,306 BMW motorcycles were delivered to customers in 2009, compared to 101,685 in 2008,"
"In the USA, BMW Motorrad’s third largest market, the market as a whole decreased by 41.6 %. Here 9,168 (previous year: 11,831)"
Look like over 10% to me.
pulled from http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcyc...ycle-sales.htm
Pull up the totals forF800's wink wink nod nod.
__________________
Owned to date. Honda Aero 50, Honda Elite 80, Honda Elite 250x2, Suzuki Katana, Suzuki RF600, Yamaha YZF1000R, Kymco Xciting 500, Suzuki GS500, Suzuki Burgman 650, BMW F800GSx2, BMW S1000RR, Aprilia Scarabeo 200, Aprilia Caponord, Aprilia Sportcity 250
I love and miss you Jeneca and I'm sorry.
JoelWisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 06:26 PM   #13
GeorgeinVA
Beemers Uber Alles
 
GeorgeinVA's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Manassas VA
Oddometer: 603
F800GS has the same fuel injector 13617672335 as R12GS R12RT R12R R12ST HP2sport F800S F650GS twin so even if only 330 (3% of "Outstanding sales figures were also achieved by the F 800 GS (10,974 units)" F800GS were sold the fuel injectors are in far more bikes.
__________________
Beemers Uber Alles
9248 Mike Garcia Drive
Manassas Va 20109
(571) 318 2472
Indie BMW Maintenance
www.beemersuberalles.com
GeorgeinVA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 07:00 PM   #14
EnderTheX
Drunken Squirrel
 
EnderTheX's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: DFW Area, TX
Oddometer: 2,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman


The solution at least is simple. Add 1oz of techron concentrate per gallon of fuel in the tank once every 1,500 to 3,000 miles and always before winter lay-up.

I've seen some bikes corode a pump to death 3 times in a year. I haven't seen a single pump failure in bikes getting techron regularly.

Of course congres could make it easy and mandate propper additives, but I wouldn't hold your breath for that.
Hey Joel, while all the tech and chemistry stuff gets me all bothered and hot (no really... I'm a huge geek), I have a simple question.

Does fueling at a station with Techron eliminate the need to add concentrate? Can you add too much concentrate or too often? Can adding the mighty Techron increase sexual stamina?

Regards
EnderTheX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 08:59 PM   #15
JoelWisman
Beastly Adventurer
 
JoelWisman's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: STL, MO, USA
Oddometer: 1,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderTheX
Hey Joel, while all the tech and chemistry stuff gets me all bothered and hot (no really... I'm a huge geek), I have a simple question.

Does fueling at a station with Techron eliminate the need to add concentrate? Can you add too much concentrate or too often? Can adding the mighty Techron increase sexual stamina?

Regards
Techron DOES increase sexual stamina. Any techron you get on you goes everywhere similiar to anti-seize. It also tastes terrible and is probably very toxic. I wouldn't use it as a personal lubricant but a little an your hands or in your eyes is annoying enough to delay, uh, finishing.

I have been told by my district rep that you can't use techron to often BUT you can use it in too high of concentration, and if to concentrated, softening of fuel hoses can occur.

I am not sure what constitutes an overdose, but certainly 4x concentration will harm things.

As a pratical point, even 2x concentration will affect run ability for the worse.

In my old job as a DSR for Volvo, NW district, the additives in Chevron fuel are diluted enough that you can still use techron in 1oz per gallon ratios without harm, however, you would rarely if ever need to as Chevron fuel is kick as "top tier" fuel of the highest quality.

http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html

I have however addressed the chevron question directly with BMW nor seen it in any BMW documentation, but as I said above, Volvo states it is not an issue.

I don't work for or have any stock in Chevron, I am simply convinced their additives work.

I am not pleased that BMW fuel pumps are sensitive to contaminated ethinol oxygenated gasoline with poor additives, I simply find adding techron concentrate every 1500 to 3000 miles and right before lay up to be more convenient then lobbying for a recall or redress that may never happen.
__________________
Owned to date. Honda Aero 50, Honda Elite 80, Honda Elite 250x2, Suzuki Katana, Suzuki RF600, Yamaha YZF1000R, Kymco Xciting 500, Suzuki GS500, Suzuki Burgman 650, BMW F800GSx2, BMW S1000RR, Aprilia Scarabeo 200, Aprilia Caponord, Aprilia Sportcity 250
I love and miss you Jeneca and I'm sorry.
JoelWisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 08:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014