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Old 09-28-2010, 11:46 AM   #151
Chromer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFive
So, I might need to give her "more air". My next test run will be without the airbox door....
Still more air? Sounds like forced induction is in your future at some point, you pretty-much have all the supporting electronics now...

Thanks for taking the time to do this thread, I'll be down this road eventually.
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Old 09-28-2010, 04:42 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromer
Sounds like forced induction is in your future at some point
Golly, I sure hope not.



I just passed 400 miles today.

The Good News....the motor hasn't cratered.

The Bad News....I had to quit riding (for the day).

If my bags had been all packed up, my next stop might have been Tellico Plains!

The motor sounds real good, and the performance is very nice. I could get used to this!

Today, I figured out how to describe what this mod feels like....& here it is:

"It feels exactly like I was hoping it did, when I bought it and got my first ride"

Kind of like the story of the Three Bears.....not too soft, not too hard, but JUST RIGHT.

The way it pulls through the gears now, tells me what it was missing before. She has a nice dose of extra umph....all the way to the top. Bad English, I know, but it makes my point.


I'll explain it another way that is certain to strike a chord in all my fellow aviation pilots:

"It feels like I've moved from just behind the Power Curve, to just in front of it"

The magnitude of the change isn't huge, but the affect on performance is significant. It makes everything feel different....in a good way. Response is quicker, stronger, & more predictable. I'm hitting the numbers now....no more lag.


What I had before was pretty good. This feels better. I have to watch my speed in town....I keep busting through the 45 mph zones before I realize it.



Now then, on the way home tonight, I got an idea everyone can participate in to help post a comparison. I don't know if it will be effective. And, its not too scientific, but I think it will work. Here goes:

Everyone with a WRR has a clock on their electronic display. It shows the time in "seconds". What I want you to do is time your acceleration speed from 0 - 60 mph (not Kph....you can easily switch your display to mph for this test). While at a dead stop idling....and ready....let the clock turn over to a new minute. Take off when the seconds turn "zero" and give her hell.

Read the seconds as soon as you hit 60 mph.

Do this test a couple of rounds to verify your time and report back here.

Very Important: Sit straight up with maximum wind resistance. Don't lay down and/or lighten your load. Do it with whatever you normally have on the bike...as you normally ride around (say "commuting" to work). I had a full tailbag, and my full Wolfman Saddlebags. This is not a time trial at the Bonneville Salt Flats. We are comparing "how the motor pulls your load" on a normal day.

I even had some headwind when I did this test today. So, don't turn in your numbers with wind at your back, pointed 40 degrees downhill, with a running start. Let's do a straight up comparison as simple as possible, on flat ground. I just ran thru the gears nice and hard. I didn't even hit my rev limiter. I just raced out of the hole good & hard until I hit 60 mph.

My time on multiple runs was averaging 7 seconds max. A few runs were maybe slightly less. My gearing is 13/46.

Please post your time and your gearing. Let the race begin!

HF
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HighFive screwed with this post 09-28-2010 at 04:52 PM
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:58 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFive
Today, I figured out how to describe what this mod feels like....& here it is:

"It feels exactly like I was hoping it did, when I bought it and got my first ride"

Kind of like the story of the Three Bears.....not too soft, not too hard, but JUST RIGHT.

The way it pulls through the gears now, tells me what it was missing before. She has a nice dose of extra umph....all the way to the top. Bad English, I know, but it makes my point.
Glad you're happy with it! The question I have is--how much of this "just right" is due to the extra 40cc's, and how much is due to your efforts & $ in tuning the EFI/AFR system? I guess it's more of a rhetorical question, but I'm curious to see what it would feel like with a heap of EFI tuning on the stock engine...hmmmmm...
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Old 09-28-2010, 06:27 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HardWorkingDog
Glad you're happy with it! The question I have is--how much of this "just right" is due to the extra 40cc's, and how much is due to your efforts & $ in tuning the EFI/AFR system? I guess it's more of a rhetorical question, but I'm curious to see what it would feel like with a heap of EFI tuning on the stock engine...hmmmmm...
Good question....and I think I can answer it: extra umph due mostly to the additional 40cc's. Remember, I had my stock motor Dyno tuned....at least as good as possible with the FMF fuel programmer. While, it could have been tweaked a little better, my Dyno Chart showed pretty good AFR values, everywhere except the bottom end (where we had no control with the FMF unit).

Then, I got to ride Cyborg's WRR in Seattle area this past July. It was finely tuned by some pros with a PC-III fuel programmer. That's the day I fell in love with the Power Commander product. I don't think a stock motor could be tuned any better than what he has....anywhere. There's just so much more micro-control with the PC units. If you're in to that kind of stuff (which I am).

What it was: Super smooth power delivery....spot on perfect, especially right off bottom.

What it wasn't: Stronger umph....like I have now. In fact, my bike (with stock motor) was pulling stronger than his, at that time. Maybe due to some of my extra mods, which he may not have done. Maybe because he got a dud.

The difference now is definitely more than something produced just from the fuel programmer tuning. I don't think switching your programmer will give you a significant change in "power" (per se).....assuming your current setup is not poorly tuned. But rather, smoother power delivery across the whole rpm range. Maybe only detectable by real annal people like me.

HF

p.s. blame it on too many years of Trials riding....where we want spot on flawless power delivery that is smooooooth as a baby's butt.
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Old 09-29-2010, 08:03 AM   #155
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Okay, I will go first. I am about 190 lbs with gear. My bike is stock except for the EXUP has been removed and it has an FMF programmer that is set like HighFive recommended way back in this thread.

Little over 5000 miles. D606's front and rear. 13/46 and speedohealer or what ever it is called. Have not verified my speedo with GPS since I changed from 12/42.

No gas in tank (2 gallon), warning light been on since 85 miles in Torrey Ut.

400 elevation here at home. I got like 10 seconds first two runs. Figured I could do better than that, so I did a dragster start in 1st then shifted before the power fell and got in the 9s twice.

7s would be a huge improvement in my book!
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:28 AM   #156
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Way to go...llamapacker. Super Thanks for getting it started!

And,you bring up a great point that I overlooked: Speedohealer.

The bone stock speedo is way off. Indicates faster speed than you are going. That would really screw up this comparison.


So, to participate in this comparison, you need to have either a speedohealer corrected speedometer (aka 12 O'clock labs device) or be using a GPS for actual verified speed. "Indicated Speed" from the bone stock display, will not be valid for this test.

Carry on...

HF

p.s. I'm about 185 lbs in gear, D606 front & rear, 13/46 gearing, with 12 O'clock speedohealer, & gps (my speeds match), big fat Safari tank full of gas!
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Old 09-29-2010, 07:35 PM   #157
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I know HF and probably a lot of other folks are waiting to hear from me on my Athena/PC-V mod. Sorry, Haven't had a bunch of time to work on it. Here's a quick status report...

Hardware all done, both Athena and PC-V/Autotune.

Initial impressions on increase in the "smile" factor are very good. I am totally satisfied that I now have a 250XCF-W that is blue and doesn't flood when I drop it. And I don't feel like I have to truck it to the dirt. And change the oil all the time.

Currently trying to fix an off idle stall when aggressively twisting the throttle.

I'll try to give a final report when I can get everything worked out.


A couple of observations that HF was probably a little more diplomatic about presenting... Athena instructions were worthless. Didn't even read them. Dynojet instructions are worthless as well. There's no excuse for that. Period.


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Old 09-29-2010, 08:16 PM   #158
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"Currently trying to fix an off idle stall when aggressively twisting the throttle."

One likely solution:

Nitrous oxide injection. It's generally recommended, though, to not exceed a 125 horsepower shot when first beginning. This should avoid burning your piston or valves.



Artoodles
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:07 PM   #159
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Heading for the Kiamichi Mitns this weekend....for the first REAL field test. I'll get in some good rocky single track. Looking forward to seeing how she performs.

HF
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:36 PM   #160
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Heading west to the see the g/f tomorrow, if I remember I'll try to do some 0-60 runs. Well, pay attention to the timing of them anyways.

But first, gotta wait for the rain to stop and install the battery harness for all the heated gear that showed up today. Jacket, gloves, socks, screw being cold this winter!
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:34 PM   #161
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Artoo's Zero to 60

Near as I can measure it, zero to sixty in 10.5 seconds.

I'm an ex bracket racer so I kept it in the fat of the torque band probably shifting quite a bit shorter than most would. Other than experience leading me to that typical advantage, I did NOT go whole hog - drag style. Just a hard start, no WFO power shifting, no clutchless, no humpin' the tank.

I consider the result to be pretty darned good especially considering:

7100 feet elevation. However, the air was cool and dry at about 60 degrees, so that no doubt quickened it a bit.

Now on to the setup:

Rider, gear and payload: 178 lbs

12/43 gearing

12 O'clock labs speedo healer dialed spot on plus a GPS for backup.

Bike mods: Basically about like HighFive's mods back when he did his second dyno series with the following exceptions: Megabomb header, HF ultimate airbox mod.

Also, the bike is an X with Shinko 244's (4.60-17 front, 5.10-17 rear). This tire is considerably shorter than the popular D606 used on many WRR's, so it probably acts like a little lower gear ratio than 12/43 is usually expected to act.

IMS tank about half full.

Lower gears help a lot "outta' the hole", so mebbe this throws this result out?


I am surprised. I figured the loss of power due to altitude would really sap the thing. Then again, zero to sixty in 10.5 ain't exactly a "performance" number.


If I were willing to spend a day and some clutch practicing the launch, I could probably drop a half second.


Oh, and nitrous was NOT involved.


Artoo
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:02 PM   #162
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Artoo, my runs were similar in that, no wheelie, shifted in the fat torque or right when it quits sorta. Clutch, no speed shifts.
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:29 PM   #163
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llampacker,

Good to know.

I tend to think I'm adding some bogus time... from:

Watching the clock digit roll over - to throttle/clutch (reaction time)

And then, glancing back and forth from speedo to clock to "hack" 60 while trying to stay between the lines (more reaction time).

I dunno. Probably have to get someone to time me to make it more accurate.

Anyway, sounds like an apples to apples comparison to me so far. Have you gotten your DRD speedo healer dialed back in yet? If so, how far off was it when you did your 0-60?

I suspect I gained back some of the big power hit we take up here due to altitude by doing HF's previous power mods.

Yes, EFI adjusts for mixture, but less air pressure here means less air gets in the cylinder. EFI can't help there. A fairly snappy EFI car at sea level is a damned dog up here.

Here, I'll add something for the "It's Just A 250" hammerheads: One thing I know for sure: It's way quicker zero to 70 than my super well farkled KLR650 was! To me, that's absolutely amazing. A 250 easily wasting a 650?! Ain't technology great? This decade's tech, that is!

But then, no one ever said a KLR was fast. Likewise a WRX ain't no speed demon, but it IS way quicker than a KLR up to 60 or 65 or maybe more... and a helluva' lot more fun to ride!!

Found a gnarly singletrack trailhead today and it's only 35 minutes from home!!

"Anywhere!"

Artoo
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:38 PM   #164
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No on the GPS, I need to fab another mount as I robbed the one I was using to put on the MTS12. I looked for you couple of weeks ago, we trailered to Torrey, UT and I went up I-25 to 160 to get into the cool.

I think the Duc took a more noticeable hit on HP in the altitude than the 250, but I could feel it on both bikes. The Duc will lift the front wheel in 2nd under accel (even with DTC on 6) and carry it till you shift, but would not do it in the mountains.

I chased a CRF450 (with the WRR) up Boulder Mountain all day, and he could only pull me on the gravel roads, but I would catch him and stagger to get out of the dust cloud when he steadied at 45mph or so. The D606 front end was trying to wash out on the turns, and not enough power to flat track it.
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:40 PM   #165
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Artoo's Speedo DRD Setting

Meant to have this in the post above.

With that setup, GPS says it's dead on with a 12 O'Clock Labs Speedo DRD unit set at:

Minus 14.7%

I originally had it set higher (19.8%) due to a WAG based on some "bistro math", but it was way off then.

-14.7 is the good number for my setup.

Artoo
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