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Old 01-08-2011, 10:13 AM   #61
craftycoder
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I'm guessing the the gas pressurized cartridges require special equipment to rebuild that your average shop doesn't have. The basic oil damping is tried and true and any suspension shop will easily be able to order the parts to do the repair.

I'm still curious is the USA (NIX) model requires the bottom lug to be machined. $200 install isn't so bad really. It would cost me more to do find someone here to do it, because they would have to build a jig and that gets expensive quick.

I'm a little worried about the single function tubes though. What happens when you blow a seal? No damping in one direction at all? That sounds pretty bad to me.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:01 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Sutherngintelmen View Post
How do we pro/ con decide nix vs ttx
Short answer: you don't.

We can certainly speculate on the theoretical merits of either system, but in the end, it really comes down to how good the suspension is set up (that is specifically to say: NOT how good the components are), and the subjective feel from one rider to the next. If both systems were set up by the same person, its probably likely that the pressurized version would feel better to most riders...but by how much is really uncertain. My guess would be: minimal.

I get the impression that the USA kit doesn't modify the bottom lug, which would explain the one side comp, one side rebound technology. That set up isn't exactly ideal (theoretically better to have both in both legs), but when you consider the "real world" aspect of you and me and the rest of the people on this forum, its not going to make much, if any difference.

I'd probably end up with the USA version (if the choice was between these two) simply from a DIY maint. perspective, and that's mostly because I'd be too lazy to take off the forks and drag them down to the suspension shop for a recharge....but really, I don't think there's much between them. Price included.

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Originally Posted by craftycoder View Post
I'm guessing the the gas pressurized cartridges require special equipment to rebuild that your average shop doesn't have.
Unlikely. Its basically the same as rebuilding a shock. There may be a few special tools required for holding this or unscrewing that, but those special tools are going to be the same special tools required for other Ohlins operations. Like most suspension options, these units (both of them) are an adaption of more 'universal' technology into the 800's specific geometry.

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Originally Posted by craftycoder View Post
I'm a little worried about the single function tubes though. What happens when you blow a seal? No damping in one direction at all? That sounds pretty bad to me.
Losing gas pressure isn't all that great either though. In the end, failure mode is a wash for me.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:43 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
Losing gas pressure isn't all that great either though. In the end, failure mode is a wash for me.
Lost the charge in my Bitubo kit. Pretty much sucked, but was ridable.
The NIX setup is similar to what I had assumed the 800 came w/ from the start.
Simple re-spring and/or re-valve and be on your way.
If the Bitubos shit the bed again I may consider making the switch.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:49 PM   #64
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Griz, did some research last night to jog my memory. When I talked with the Ohlins USA folks in December they said it was the FGK kit, which is the road race internals. I have an email out to them, and if I don't hear from them will call Monday.

I would imagine that given the intermediat lenght of travel, the suspension folks will have to modify either kit. The MX cartridge will have to get shorter, or the road cartridge will have to get longer.

I think for real world use for me, the technological best is probably more complicated than I need. If the adjusters are on the top of the fork and it is fairly simple to take apart, that will be best for me.

The questions I'm asking:

Why does Ohlins need the forks rebuilt in Hendersonville NC?
How does the suspension work and how will I be adjusting it?
Can they fix rock chips in the sliders?

The forks are out and washed up ready to ship when I get a reply back. Unfortuneately testing will have to wait until some of this snow melts.

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Old 01-08-2011, 03:51 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
Griz, did some research last night to jog my memory. When I talked with the Ohlins USA folks in December they said it was the FGK kit, which is the road race internals. I have an email out to them, and if I don't hear from them will call Monday.
Strange, the guy at Ohlins USA I talked to Thursday said it's the "NIX" kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
The questions I'm asking:

Why does Ohlins need the forks rebuilt in Hendersonville NC?
So that it gets done correctly and up to their high standards. Makes sense to me. There are a lot of installation variables that could effect the ride quality negatively. It's their way of quality control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
How does the suspension work and how will I be adjusting it?
I'm assuming you're talking about the USA kit here, so I'll repost word for word what the guy told me:

-Was developed in the USA by Ohlins USA, not Ohlins Sweden.
-It is the "NIX" cartridge kit. (oil damped, no gas)
-The rigorous testing for the kit was done at the BMW off road skills school in South Carolina.
-The kit completely replaces all of the Marzocchi internals and Marzocchi fork caps.
-The kit includes proper Ohlins straight rate springs for rider weight.
-The kit uses HUGE 30mm pistons for valving.
-Each fork leg ends up NOT having both rebound and compression damping combination pistons. One fork leg gets a 30mm compression damping piston only, which damps ONLY compression. The other fork leg gets a 30mm rebound damping piston only, which damps ONLY rebound. The reason for this is to IMPROVE performance. According to so and so at Ohlins USA, and I agree with him totally, when one piston is burdened with having to damp for BOTH compression AND rebound, oil movement through said dual-purpose piston is hindered, therefore performance and plushness is reduced. When a single piston is responsible for ONLY one form of damping (rebound or compression), the oil flows more uniformly through said piston, improving performance AND plushness. So, Ohlins USA's use of a dedicated separate pistons for rebound and damping split between fork legs is a good thing, not a bad thing as it seems.
-Both fork legs have spring preload adjustment.

You will be adjusting rebound damping on one leg, and compression damping on the other, spring preload adjustment on both of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
Can they fix rock chips in the sliders?
Good question. I'm sure they can. Fill and polish.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:03 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by bxr140 View Post
...which would explain the one side comp, one side rebound technology. That set up isn't exactly ideal (theoretically better to have both in both legs), but when you consider the "real world" aspect of you and me and the rest of the people on this forum, its not going to make much, if any difference.
That's not necessarily the case. What experts are learning as of late about forks is changing. The pros at Ohlins told me why. Since they know what they're doing and actually build suspension systems every, we'll go with what they say. It makes logical sense anyway!

Here's what Ohlins USA said regarding the split compression/rebound setup:

-The kit uses HUGE 30mm pistons for valving. This allows each single purpose piston to effect a MUCH larger volume of oil then even two dual purpose pistons.
-Each fork leg ends up NOT having both rebound and compression damping combination pistons. One fork leg gets a 30mm compression damping piston only, which damps ONLY compression. The other fork leg gets a 30mm rebound damping piston only, which damps ONLY rebound. The reason for this is to IMPROVE performance. According to so and so at Ohlins USA, and I agree with him totally, when one piston is burdened with having to damp for BOTH compression AND rebound, oil movement through said dual-purpose piston is hindered due to the design of the dual purpose piston, therefore performance and plushness is reduced. When a single piston is responsible for ONLY one form of damping (rebound or compression), the oil flows more uniformly through said piston, improving performance AND plushness. So, Ohlins USA's use of a dedicated separate pistons for rebound and damping split between fork legs is a good thing, not a bad thing as it seems. A single purpose piston can actually effect a larger volume of oil in the fork leg than a dual purpose piston can, making the single purpose piston's damping effectiveness superior.

These words came out of the suspension expert's mouth at Ohlins, NOT MINE.
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:14 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Griz View Post
That's not necessarily the case. What experts are learning as of late about forks is changing. The pros at Ohlins told me why. Since they know what they're doing and actually build suspension systems every, we'll go with what they say. It makes logical sense anyway!
Marketing can do a lot of things. Single direction forks are not a new concept. Neither are gas charged forks, for that matter.

In a nutshell, with the single damping fork you're asking one similarly sized damping unit to do the same work that two similarly sized units used to do. To do so you need to beef up the shims which creates a loss in damping precision and loss of adjustment fidelity. Same goes for the fixed orifice slow speed. The negatives outweigh the positives of the single direction fork, which is why you don't see such single direction technology in extreme applications.

Again, big picture for someone like me and you, its probably a non-issue if they're set up properly. So much so that it wouldn't sway my wallet either way.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:36 PM   #68
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I did read what you said before Griz, you didn't need to repeat it. Its all good though.

I hope that I will be able to rebuild the forks here in Montana, which is why I'm asking about the reason for sending them to NC. Also I really want some direction on tuning the settings, as I'm not the most knowledgable about suspension. My questions are repetative, because I always try to verify information from the internet.

The guy I talked to is now in the inventory and puchasing department, so I won't say my information is the most accurate. However the website hasn't been updated either.

David
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:42 PM   #69
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Good points, bxr.

All I wanted to do in this thread was relay what Ohlins USA has done with their kit and why. Hopefully I have achieved that!
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:45 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
I hope that I will be able to rebuild the forks here in Montana, which is why I'm asking about the reason for sending them to NC. Also I really want some direction on tuning the settings, as I'm not the most knowledgable about suspension. My questions are repetative, because I always try to verify information from the internet.

The guy I talked to is now in the inventory and puchasing department, so I won't say my information is the most accurate. However the website hasn't been updated either.

David
If being self-rebuildable is your concern, I'd go with the USA kit: no gas charging needed. Only oil.

It sounds to me like the initial install needs to take place at Ohlins USA in NC, but I'm sure you could order parts directly from them and service the forks yourself subsequently.
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:38 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
I hope that I will be able to rebuild the forks here in Montana, which is why I'm asking about the reason for sending them to NC.
Rebuilding (or just changing the oil) shouldn't be any different than any other non-changed USD fork. Note that unless they come with a tool to remove the top fork cap, you'll need to buy one. Should be a pretty standard item available at a local shop, and probably all over the internets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
Also I really want some direction on tuning the settings, as I'm not the most knowledgable about suspension.
Unless its confirmed that they will actually valve to your needs and riding style, I'd highly recommend you either take them straight to a local suspension shop and have them re-valve, or get a few miles on them (so you get a baseline feel) and then have the local shop re-work them. Its worth the extra couple hundred bucks. To not do so would kind of be like buying a plush luxury car but then never touching the seat adjustments or HVAC knobs.

Regarding the external adjustments, it really is pretty basic once you grasp the concepts, and a number of internet sites will tell you what more or less compression or rebound damping should feel like. Use The Googles, and I suggest you read more than one site. They all basically say the same thing but with different words, so some might be easier to understand/visualize than others. There are also a handful of good books on suspension set up for noobs that you can score from Amazon or wherever.

Since external adjustments are free, easy, and reversible, I highly recommend you spend an hour on your favorite road and just screw around with cranking up or down one adjuster at a time. Take good notes, and eventually you should be able to hone in on something that feels right for you. If you get a shop to re-valve they'll set the external adjustments, so you can use their settings as a baseline.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:01 PM   #72
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Since we all like talking here, I thought I would add to the noise.

From the email discussion I had with Gary Christopher (the previous service lead):
  • NIX = FGK 30mm - the 25 mm kit isn't getting its own designation yet.
  • NIX is semi customized for the bikes they install it.
  • NIX should be easy to maintain as a DIY projct.
  • Its not gas charged
  • Pro's
    • Simple system for adjustment and maintenance
    • Supposedly more robust, will last longer between maintenance
    • Very good system for adventure riding
  • Con's
    • When you want the very best feel, gas charged is the best
    • Must be installed in North Carolina
  • They are very confident of the all the testing they have done on the test mule.
So I've commited, wish me luck.








David
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:10 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
Since we all like talking here, I thought I would add to the noise.

From the email discussion I had with Gary Christopher (the previous service lead):
  • NIX = FGK 30mm - the 25 mm kit isn't getting its own designation yet.
  • NIX is semi customized for the bikes they install it.
  • NIX should be easy to maintain as a DIY projct.
  • Its not gas charged
  • Pro's
    • Simple system for adjustment and maintenance
    • Supposedly more robust, will last longer between maintenance
    • Very good system for adventure riding
  • Con's
    • When you want the very best feel, gas charged is the best
    • Must be installed in North Carolina
  • They are very confident of the all the testing they have done on the test mule.
So I've commited, wish me luck.








David
Very nice! Keep us posted!
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:21 PM   #74
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I think you're going to be VERY pleased. You're ride will be VASTLY improved up front, and you'll be able to service them yourself in Montana!
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:51 PM   #75
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HMMMMM. I think I am getting in on this too...I have the forks off, just trying to decide whether to send them or just install some springs.

What did you do on the rear? In this slippery slope of trying to buy myself more riding skill, I can't imagine doing the front and not showing equivalent love to the rear suspension.

FWIW, a rear Ohlins on my old 650 thumper transformed the bike...

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