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Old 10-06-2010, 06:57 PM   #31
pommie john
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Well it looks to me like that's the spring from the old seal. It probably got dislodged when you levered the old seal out.

What I would do now, is put the thrust washer ( the copper ring) back on its pegs and bolt the flywheel back on without a new seal ( yet).

See if it turns freely.

If it does, all good, put in a new seal ( they should be brown coloured) and re assemble everything.

If it doesn't turn freely, then you've got to look at the thrust washer on the other side of the main bearing, ( inside the engine).
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:04 PM   #32
TimTowtdi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyotejoe
the thing im having trouble understanding is how in the world that spring got compressed in the first place. the flywheel bolts onto the crankshaft while the spring and thrust washer sit on the outside of it and can move freely. the only thing i could think of is if it fell off the crankshaft as i was installing the flywheel and got crushed when i was torqueing the flywheel bolts....but then the seal should have prevented that from happening...

also i kept the spring in there because 1) it was part of the original assembly and 2) isnt it used to help add tension on the thrust washer?

im going to try to remove the real main seal when i get home so i could see whats going on. ill keep you guys updated
Joe,
The spring is only used on the old seal design. It is not needed with the new design seal. As long as it did not damage the thrust washer, you should be good to install another new seal and bolt it together. It is not that complicated.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:36 PM   #33
Infracaninophile
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Guys:

I fixed the pictures in the earlier post. I messed them up and then was out of the house for a few hours. You can see the pics now.

t.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:45 PM   #34
Infracaninophile
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Coyote:

A few pics from mine last winter.

Old Seal still in place:




Old Seal Removed (Matt Parkhouse doing the work).






The seal. No Spring:




New Seal going into place with special tool:




New Seal In Place:

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Old 10-06-2010, 10:24 PM   #35
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Since you have the flywheel off and the oil pump cover off....did you tap the oil pump cover bolt holes before reassembly?

The 4 bolts go in with medium Loctite. When you pull the cover, some of that stuff stays in the holes and messes up the torque readings...the bolts don't completely seat and if not seated...leaky cover.

Tap all 4 holes, clean the holes with spray cleaner, and hand turn the bolts in the hole to make sure they seat all the way in before final assembly..saves a lot of grief later.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerguru
Since you have the flywheel off and the oil pump cover off....did you tap the oil pump cover bolt holes before reassembly?

The 4 bolts go in with medium Loctite. When you pull the cover, some of that stuff stays in the holes and messes up the torque readings...the bolts don't completely seat and if not seated...leaky cover.

Tap all 4 holes, clean the holes with spray cleaner, and hand turn the bolts in the hole to make sure they seat all the way in before final assembly..saves a lot of grief later.
A cutting tap is not a cleaning tap. They remove material with every pass. I try to save those threads. I recommend cleaning threads with a thread cleaner, not a cutting tap. Big diff! I believe those threads were originally rolled versus cut but I have never looked at them close enough to know for sure. Regardless, if the threads need doctoring I use a roll tap, not a cutting tap. I always heat those bolts up before removing them because you never know what kind of loctite they might have on them. Better safe than sorry.

Good machine supply shops have roll taps in stock.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:17 PM   #37
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Matt is actually removing the guide ring in that photo and not the seal. Personally, I think getting a rag and a Vise Grip on the center of the ring and rocking it off is a much easier way to get it off. Sometimes the oil underneath the guide ring can super suck that thing on like glue. Rocking it breaks the seal very easily and it comes right off. Trying to pry it off like it looks like Matt is doing can be a real PITA. I hope the crank didn't get buggered there. It looks like maybe it did in the next photo.

I think it is all to easy to STILL get that seal started in too crooked with that style tool. That sucker can pop half way in before you know it and then it shaves half the ribs off the OD while the other half is getting pushed in. I use the same tool but have it drilled for using all five bolts. It makes a Big Diff!

He needs a picture of replacing the guide ring's O-ring. That is a crucial part of the job!
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:32 AM   #38
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wow guys i just had a huge F* me moment tonite. the bright side is that i finally understand the mechanics of how the flywheel and crankshaft assembly work. originally i had pictured something like this ] [ if "]" was the butt end of the crankshaft and "[" was the flywheel that bolts onto it.
but now i understand that the butt of the crankshaft actually fits INTO the fly wheel which explains how the spring and thrust washer got crushed when i bolted the flywheel down.

the huge f me moment came when i realized that when i torqued the flywheel bolts in, it crushed the pins that the thrust washer sat on and pushed them all the way in so that they're almost flush with the engine casing. that probably knocked the inner thrust washer off which is why i cant spin the flywheel so now i have two boo boo's that i have to somehow fix. i took some pictures and hopefully Infracaninophile can host them for me so you guys can see what im talking about.

really stupid mistake and kicking myself in the ass about it but the real question is, what do i next? what are my options?

is this sort of problem even fixable?
do i have to get a different engine and part out my old one?
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Old 10-07-2010, 05:19 AM   #39
AntonLargiader
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The crank needs to come out and you need to replace the pins. Maybe the thrust washers depending on their condition.

This is not trivial work.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:08 AM   #40
mcma111
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coyotejoe

Where are you? Fill out your profile. Perhaps your near someone that can help with the engine work.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:59 AM   #41
Infracaninophile
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Pics from CJ [OP]: I am going to label these as Picture #1, #2, #3 in case the OP or someone else wants to refer to them.

Picture #1




Picture #2




Picture #3



Tom

Infracaninophile screwed with this post 10-07-2010 at 02:23 PM
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:39 PM   #42
Infracaninophile
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I'm confused after thinking about the last OP photos. In Photo #3 -> what is that round metal ring. Where does that sit? I can't find it on the parts fiche. Does it normally sit behind the brass looking piece in Photo #2? I'm pretty sure I didn't see or touch one one these when I did my seal.

Tom
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:51 PM   #43
wirewrkr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infracaninophile
I'm confused after thinking about the last OP photos. In Photo #3 -> what is that round metal ring. Where does that sit? I can't find it on the parts fiche. Does it normally sit behind the brass looking piece in Photo #2? I'm pretty sure I didn't see or touch one one these when I did my seal.

Tom
are you just kidding Tom?
The pictures 2 and 3 are of both sides of the wasted thrust ring
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:55 PM   #44
Infracaninophile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wirewrkr
are you just kidding Tom?
The pictures 2 and 3 are of both sides of the wasted thrust ring
Wire:

Not kidding. I can see Pics 2 & 3 are opposite sides of a metal donut piece. I guess I'm clueless: Exactly which piece is that? It must be something that you normally don't touch when you change the rear main seal as I don't recall it. I know I'm sometimes a smartass but I am serious.

Perhaps a part number would help me find it on the fiche...

Thanks,

Tom
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Old 10-07-2010, 03:31 PM   #45
Bill Harris
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Picture 2 is the rear thrust washer, the side that bears against the flywheel. Picture 3 is the other side of the same rear thrust washer, the side that bears against the engine block. You can see where the two locating pins have "embossed" the thrust washer (twice), and the dashed pattern of the seal lip-spring on the washer. There is a thrust washer (11111256973) in front of the rear main bearing (it is the one that usually gets trashed) and another (same part#) washer to the rear of the rear main brng (this one).

Little story. The very first rear main oil seal I did on my own BMW in '78-'79 ended up going somewhat down the tubes. I'd worked on VW and BMW cars for years, so a rear main seal was a piece of cake. Until I noticed that the crankshaft wasn't going as far back again as it had slid forward (didn't block the crank). Called Hans, my bud at the dealership, and he said "Ach, ya. Zey don't tell ya about zat in der buch" and proceeded to tell me about the joys of the front thrust washer. Pulled the right cylinder, weaseled the thrust washer back on, did pushrod tube seals and lived and learnt.

And so life goes.
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