ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Old's Cool > Airheads
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-08-2010, 03:09 PM   #61
The Raven
Banned
 
The Raven's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Off the map,
Oddometer: 4,813
I don't know, I hate to see an engine get worked over by a guy who has no clue what a starter gear is. Reading this post he does not seem to take the care needed, or have the forethought to double/triple check all things. I know he needs to learn, but lets start on an old chainsaw...not an airhead....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishkens
Oh c'mon. That which can be lost by trying this is far smaller than that which might be gained.

Some people are meant to explore, others should just stay on the couch.

Whether it's roads or engines, it seems to me that this forum is meant to support the explorer.

Dig in CJ and post pics.
The Raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 04:29 PM   #62
fishkens
Further...
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Oddometer: 5,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raven
I don't know, I hate to see an engine get worked over by a guy who has no clue what a starter gear is. Reading this post he does not seem to take the care needed, or have the forethought to double/triple check all things. I know he needs to learn, but lets start on an old chainsaw...not an airhead....
Okay. I've reviewed the thread, learned a few things and see that more butchering has gone on than I thought.

I still say explore, but go more cautiously, more observantly and more gently.
__________________
Forging ahead, down a false trail.
fishkens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 04:31 PM   #63
The Raven
Banned
 
The Raven's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Off the map,
Oddometer: 4,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishkens
I still say explore, but go more cautiously, more observantly and more gently.
Yes 100000+ I agree.
The Raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 06:52 PM   #64
Beemerguru
Beemerguru...G/S guy
 
Beemerguru's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Foster City, CA
Oddometer: 870
You can almost treat this as the very old med school motto "See on, do one, teach one"

This will save EVERYONE time. money, and a large liquor bill.

Even at a Tech Day, you can tell what you're going to find on someone's bike just by starting with the basics...taking a valve cover off. When King Kong put the 2 nuts on last time and did a bench press with the little 10 mm wrench, you know it's going to be a long session.

Just about anyone can take something apart and reassemble if they take the time to see how it's done correctly first, do each step with deliberation and thoughtfulness, and follow the %@%$# instructions.

Looking at the parts explosion will give you a visual reference for what goes where, watching someone do the procedure at a Tech session gives you how to so what in what order,,and reading the instructions puts you in the ballpark for what the factory had in mind.

First time rear mail seal isn't the most obvious or easiest major repair to try..some things just aren't in the book (duh!!) so we all learn by falling down and getting up again.

I bet more than a few people didn't quite get their first valve adjustment right either. Same for their first attempt at adjusting carbs.

Or I could tell you the time I rebuilt a VW engine 3 times in 1 day because I kept leaving out the oil slinger...buts that's another story.

Forums educate, infuriate, and mediate. Play nice in the samdbox when someone bangs you with their little shovel
__________________
Greg Hutchinson
BMW Club of Northern California, Ambassador, BMW MOA, Vice President Vintage BMW Club
http://gregsgssite.shutterfly.com/
Beemerguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 07:17 PM   #65
The Raven
Banned
 
The Raven's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Off the map,
Oddometer: 4,813
I remember mine..oh crap. I had the Clymers, Haynes and BMW manual and they STILL didn't have the proper procedure for doing it right as the seal was different. Anton had to tell me it was backwards. Did I ever have a hell of a time getting that seal back out in one piece.

It was all careful thoughtful work though and nothing got broken that didn't intend to be broken. Even if I had never worked on one before, was over tired, homesick, occasionally drunk, and quickly wearing out my welcome at the POs garage
The Raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 09:32 PM   #66
Hawk Medicine
Coyote's Brother
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: NOR CAL
Oddometer: 3,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper ST4
Who's passing judgment? We all make mistakes but we all have limitations as well. If someone is having trouble with a seal replacement then it's safe to say the crankshaft and repair is going to be a major challenge.

I'm torn between wanting to see a thread like that with lots of pictures and feeling for the poor motor. There's no way I would attempt it and I did my seal just fine but there are some things that are just out of the average Joe's league. Bottom end work, transmission work, head work, etc. require special skills and knowledge.
Firstly, I think that everyone should sit back, take a deep breath and think things through.

I know that he sounds a bit harsh but Jasper actually has made a very good point, because rehabbing this engine would best be undertaken by a knowledgeable Airhead or better yet, a professional BMW mechanic. I went through this song-and-dance a little over a year ago, when my local Ass-backwards, Crap-for-brains, Pro BMW mechanic installed my R90s flywheel without blocking the crank and then tried to leave me holding the bag.

Firstly, we know that the external spacer is toast but is the surface it sits on fraakked? It doesn't appear to be, so maybe all it'll need is some clean-up and a new spacer. The pushed-in pins means that the engine will need to be torn down to the bare block, inspected for damage to the spacer's seat and maybe milled, before new pins are pressed in and the crank reinstalled. The bill for that job in my-neck-of-the-woods is $1200+ and $200 if it needs milling but then theres gaskets, new push-rod seals, new rod bolts, new shims, new rear main seal, new flywheel bolts, etc... And if you're going that far, why not a timing chain and tensioner, new big end bearings, a cylinder honing and new rings? Hell, you're already in to it up to your ears.

OK, those are the questions but how is this particular Airhead owner going to accomplish all of this, with the knowledge in-hand and maybe a shop manual? I cant answer that question but I know that when I was faced with a similar puzzle, I paid a pro wrench to give my a disassembled engine a good looking over and once I got the repair estimate ( ), I installed a good, low mileage R100 engine in my bike and went forward from there.

This is one of those fairly simple errors that requires some real mechanical judgement and skill put right. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound as if the OP knows enough about Airheads or has the requisite experience to perform the repairs himself and farming the work out to a professional is going to be expensive.

Sure, I'd pull the engine apart but I'd also be looking for a good used mill.
__________________
Hawkdude

Hate rots the pocket that carries it.

Hawk Medicine screwed with this post 10-08-2010 at 09:41 PM
Hawk Medicine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 10:20 PM   #67
jackd
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: North Cowichan
Oddometer: 2,907
I installed a good, low mileage R100 engine in my bike and went forward from there.

This is one of those fairly simple errors that requires some real mechanical judgement and skill put right. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound as if the OP knows enough about Airheads or has the requisite experience to perform the repairs himself and farming the work out to a professional is going to be expensive.

Sure, I'd pull the engine apart but I'd also be looking for a good used mill. [/quote]

I was quoted $1500 by Recycle BMW to put my good crank in a good case after I discovered the factory created crack on my GS this summer. That would have cost me a hell of alot more with shipping and currency exchange on top of that. So what did I do? I went to the Flea Market and put an ad there for a late model complete R100 mill - and I got one too. My bike is better than before and I've got enough spare bits to keep this thing running indefinitely. And I'm a mechanic. Sometimes it pays to cut to the chase and by what I've seen here so far, I think that your lack of experience should signal you to take a pass on this major repair. It's always nice to learn but this isn't the time. Oh by the way, I changed my rear seal out successfully 2 times without buggering up the crank - it was the hardly visible block crack that escaped my inspection that caused me to go back in there repeatedly.
jackd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 10:45 PM   #68
Hawk Medicine
Coyote's Brother
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: NOR CAL
Oddometer: 3,303
The flat rate cost for installing a crank is around $1400, so your $1200 quote is right in the ball park. My R90 was going to need some milling, the crank installed, a bore job, pistons and parts and the rebuild was quoted at just over 4K. Luckily, I had a 40K mile R100 engine sitting in the garage and a shelf full of new top end stuff ready to install.

Rebuilding an Airhead engine can be very, very expensive, if you have to pay someone else to do the wrench spinning!
__________________
Hawkdude

Hate rots the pocket that carries it.
Hawk Medicine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 11:07 PM   #69
TEXASYETI
Call me "thread killer!"
 
TEXASYETI's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Oddometer: 1,881
Been there, done that

I had a thread a few months ago about something similar. Put in a new main seal and the engine would not turn. Lucky to have a few airhead mechanics locally so I loaded it up and we spent three days tearing the engine apart. I did most of the work, they just responded to frantic cries for help when necessary. However, when we got into it, there was nothing wrong with the inner thrust washer. It was snug as a bug on the dowels. Makes me wonder about the depth of the mainseal.

Taking the crank out - again, we did not need to do this - was a hassle. I can tear most of the engine down but getting the conrod bolts was interesting. heating the block took forever. Getting the frozen crank back in the heated block was also a pain. Definitely a two person job then we had to check the endplay on the crank just to make sure it was within spec. That takes an experienced mechanic IMOm

It was cool to take the crank out though. I can honestly say I have removed and replaced every single part and piece on that bike. We are bonded at a whole new level now.
__________________
BobFV1 to Putts: "Congrats on the bike. Also, congrats on having a dog with a perfectly heart-shaped asshole."

1981 R80G/S
1991 R100 GSPD

FIRST TIME RIFF RAFF - Go Jonah!
TEXASYETI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2010, 11:26 PM   #70
fishkens
Further...
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Oddometer: 5,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEXASYETI
Lucky to have a few airhead mechanics locally so I loaded it up and we spent three days tearing the engine apart.
A very good point. At some point, the intertoobes are no longer suited to solving problems and real live human expertise is the best solution. The OP may still be able to resolve this problem himself but it very well may require the close support of folks nearby who can assist with the heat wrenching, etc.
__________________
Forging ahead, down a false trail.
fishkens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 04:52 AM   #71
Infracaninophile
Finding My Way..
 
Infracaninophile's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: New England, USA
Oddometer: 7,511
This thread has gotten some really good input over the night. My post yesterday wasn't intended as a slap at anyone (about passing judgment). It was simply a statement meaning let's be helpful instead of the opposite. Didn't want to scare the OP away. He seems like a big boy.

Last winter when doing my GS and then G/S work I had Matt Parkhouse over to my house several times. I was not afraid to admit I am nothing more than an average shade tree mechanic. I got several PM's telling me I didn't need an expert to do the rear main seal replacement but felt the opposite. I have no problem admitting, as Greg said: "See, Do, Teach" approach.

In this case it appears the OP has an expensive mistake on his hands. Perhaps he can get a nice used motor (winter is approaching) or find a local wrench to assist him. In either case we're all going to learn something. When doing my G/S tear down I got 2-3 PM's per week from people I've never even seen on the Old School forum who were watching my thread. So, there's a lot of lurkers here who take a lot away from the people here who do take a stab at things. Even if they fail.

I didn't block my crank as I was removing the flywheel and several folks sent me pretty excited PM's. I didn't think it was needed until I installed the new seal. I learned a lesson as well. This is the value of this forum to me.

T.
Infracaninophile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 05:20 AM   #72
The Raven
Banned
 
The Raven's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Off the map,
Oddometer: 4,813
Tom,
You were/are on the opposite end of the spectrum though. You are so detailed and careful it's maddening at times . If you had a doubt you would stop, ask, reevaluate, ask some more, call in a pro if necessary, etc etc. If we all were as careful as you, noob or not, there would be quite a few errors not made. This is really the way it should be. I still say my offer of making a book, or at least you allowing me to use your photos to make one on the restoration of an airhead would be an asset to many.

To get back to the subject at hand, working on an airhead or anything for that matter takes the Read/Evaluate/Reread/Feel technique in which you read about the procedure. Evaluate on the bike what needs to be done. Assess how things are put together and what the designers had in mind. Then reread the procedure. Then start, carefully doing it, step by step, forcing nothing, and only applying heavy torque where needed and specified. Finally, above all else, use common sense. If it does not seem right, stop and figure out why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Infracaninophile
This thread has gotten some really good input over the night. My post yesterday wasn't intended as a slap at anyone (about passing judgment). It was simply a statement meaning let's be helpful instead of the opposite. Didn't want to scare the OP away. He seems like a big boy.

Last winter when doing my GS and then G/S work I had Matt Parkhouse over to my house several times. I was not afraid to admit I am nothing more than an average shade tree mechanic. I got several PM's telling me I didn't need an expert to do the rear main seal replacement but felt the opposite. I have no problem admitting, as Greg said: "See, Do, Teach" approach.

In this case it appears the OP has an expensive mistake on his hands. Perhaps he can get a nice used motor (winter is approaching) or find a local wrench to assist him. In either case we're all going to learn something. When doing my G/S tear down I got 2-3 PM's per week from people I've never even seen on the Old School forum who were watching my thread. So, there's a lot of lurkers here who take a lot away from the people here who do take a stab at things. Even if they fail.

I didn't block my crank as I was removing the flywheel and several folks sent me pretty excited PM's. I didn't think it was needed until I installed the new seal. I learned a lesson as well. This is the value of this forum to me.

T.
The Raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 08:03 AM   #73
jtwind
Wisconsin Airhead
 
jtwind's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Madison WI
Oddometer: 3,482
This is always a tough subject as airheads often like to do their own work and that's helped by the fact that there is more information, forums. parts etc available for them than I believe any other classic marque. I don't think the rear main seal is a especially tough or difficult task. Joe I believe was mostly using Nick Greear's excellent online article.
http://personalpages.tds.net/~nsgree..._Seal_Nick.pdf
It seems the problem came from when he ran into something he wasn't sure of instead of backing off and triple checking how to deal with it he made assumptions and plowed ahead. Obviously wrong assumptions and it got him into major problems. I'm sure lots of us has done something like this. Hopefully he can find a good way to recover.
__________________
JT

www.northwoodsairheads.com
www.jefftrappwindsors.com

"Between two explanations, choose the clearest; between two forms,
the most elementary; between two expressions, the shortest."
Between two motorcycles the simplest (DW)
Eugeni d' Ors (1881-1954); Spanish writer.


jtwind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 11:02 AM   #74
Pigford
British
 
Pigford's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: North Dorset, UK
Oddometer: 893
Back to the initial thread reason/title....

Just finished stripping a 1980 KZ1000 MKII and found some "extra's" stuck on the sump pan






Oh well - only ran it for ablout 100miles, then decided to strip it down, so its cleaned out now.
Pigford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2010, 12:09 PM   #75
Hawk Medicine
Coyote's Brother
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Location: NOR CAL
Oddometer: 3,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigford
Back to the initial thread reason/title....

Just finished stripping a 1980 KZ1000 MKII and found some "extra's" stuck on the sump pan

Oh well - only ran it for ablout 100miles, then decided to strip it down, so its cleaned out now.
So please enlighten us...

What does your post have to do with repairing the damage that "coyotejoe" did to his Airhead engine?
__________________
Hawkdude

Hate rots the pocket that carries it.
Hawk Medicine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014