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Old 10-09-2010, 07:56 PM   #91
coyotejoe OP
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ooooo i think i get it fishkens!!! and no im not trying to mess w/ u guys . this is the first time ive gone this far into a motorcycle so bear with me as im trying to learn.

so lets use this picture from this article to make sure we're on the same page:
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/flywhe...valwarning.htm

for some reason i was thinking ok if a > b i wouldnt need the rear thrust washer because the back of the flywheel will touch the crankcase and prevent the crankshaft from moving forward right? wrong. that doesnt make sense now does it.

that means the washer provides the right amount of space so that the flywheel doesnt make contact with the crankcase and also prevents the crankshaft from moving forward allowing the the thrust washer to fall down into the engine. correct?
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Old 10-09-2010, 09:09 PM   #92
Hawk Medicine
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Come on guys....

Theres only one correct way to complete this repair and it'll mean that the crank comes out, everything gets inspected, the pins get replaced and the engine is then reassembled to spec.

Think about this... In order to set the depth of the pins that hold the inside spacer in place, you need to measure the thickness of the spacer and then measure and adjust the height of the pins. The pins need to hold the spacer in place without contacting the crank, while the crank bears against the spacer.

Another consideration is that the pins are relatively soft and if they were distorted (Belled out.) when the flywheel was tightened down, they may have distorted the face of the block. Thats what happened to my engine and it requires some work with a vertical mill to correct and once again, the crank has to come out to check for this damage.

How are you going to get that stuff checked and corrected with the crank in place?

On the other hand, perhaps we are being taken for a ride...
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Hawk Medicine screwed with this post 10-09-2010 at 09:15 PM
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:01 PM   #93
jackd
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I sure wish I got 7 pages of comments on my first thread when I started this forum. I would have made my questions alot more strange if I knew it would draw out the heavy hitters - of which I am not one.
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Old 10-10-2010, 01:47 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mymindsok
So please enlighten us...

What does your post have to do with repairing the damage that "coyotejoe" did to his Airhead engine?
OK, I'll type real slow for you, so you'll have half a chance to understand it

Thread title: "did I drop my thrust washer into the engine?"

My reply: involved a nut, spacer tube and a washer, dropped into an engine.

I suppose, as I had to explain to you, you just won't get it ?!, even though I colour coded it for you.
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Old 10-10-2010, 02:56 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigford
OK, I'll type real slow for you, so you'll have half a chance to understand it

Thread title: "did I drop my thrust washer into the engine?"

My reply: involved a nut, spacer tube and a washer, dropped into an engine.

I suppose, as I had to explain to you, you just won't get it ?!, even though I colour coded it for you.
Sure enough, there was a washer. Maybe he could use yours?
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Old 10-10-2010, 05:25 AM   #96
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Lets see..where will this go

1. He ignores all suggestions, drills out the pins and by doing so enlarges the holes....he seems to think that as the are yellowish they might not be steel.

2. He takes a drift....figures he can just hammer them into the engine and they'll just drop into the oil pan. He however does not follow up the pin with a new one...or use a brass drift. Upon removing then reinstalling the oil pan...strips out 50% of the bolts.

3. Uses a stick welder he buys at harbor freight, melts and ruins the casing


In any this will end badly. It's a snails pace tragedy....amazing

I'm an ass...but do tell the harsh truth
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Old 10-10-2010, 06:37 AM   #97
fishkens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyotejoe
that means the washer provides the right amount of space so that the flywheel doesnt make contact with the crankcase and also prevents the crankshaft from moving forward allowing the the thrust washer to fall down into the engine. correct?
Yep (mostly), the thrust washers are avaiable in 4 thicknesses and when the correct size is sandwiched on either side of the case, between the flywheel and the crank they control crank endplay.

But it's not the space that keeps the flywheel from contacting the case. The washer sits between the flywheel and the case and acts as a bearing. Remove the thrust washer (bearing) and the flywheel would be rubbing on the aluminum case at 5000 rpm. Not likely to last long that way.

To be clear, there is a thrust washer between the crank and the inside of the case just like the one you crushed that sits between the flywheel and the outside of the case.

Getting clearer?
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Old 10-10-2010, 02:06 PM   #98
Hawk Medicine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigford
OK, I'll type real slow for you, so you'll have half a chance to understand it

Thread title: "did I drop my thrust washer into the engine?"

My reply: involved a nut, spacer tube and a washer, dropped into an engine.

I suppose, as I had to explain to you, you just won't get it ?!, even though I colour coded it for you.
If you tell a joke that nobody gets but you, you're either a complete bore or stupid.

End of transmission...
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Hawk Medicine screwed with this post 10-10-2010 at 02:11 PM
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Old 10-10-2010, 02:09 PM   #99
Hawk Medicine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raven
Lets see..where will this go




In any this will end badly. It's a snails pace tragedy....amazing

I'm an ass...but do tell the harsh truth
You just said a mouthful...!

PS: There isnt enough room between the rear inside surface of the block and the crank to allow for hammering the pins out from behind and if those pins are pushed in now, that means that the crank is riding on the pins, not the spacer.

I am so glad that tis isn't my engine this time. Things can only get worse from here.
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Hawk Medicine screwed with this post 10-10-2010 at 02:18 PM
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Old 10-10-2010, 02:27 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mymindsok
You just said a mouthful...!

PS: There isnt enough room between the rear inside surface of the block and the crank to allow for hammering the pins out from behind and if those pins are pushed in now, that means that the crank is riding on the pins, not the spacer.

I am so glad that tis isn't my engine this time. Things can only get worse from here.
At least it's not a g/s. I'd be having convulsions by now...
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Old 10-10-2010, 06:44 PM   #101
TEXASYETI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raven
At least it's not a g/s. I'd be having convulsions by now...
Shit, we'd be trying to find out where the guy lives to go save the bike from him. I've done some really stupid stuff on my bike but know when it is time to ask for professional help.

Not an indictment against the OP, it just seems to end up working out better - in my case at least.

Hope he gets it worked out.
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Old 10-10-2010, 07:14 PM   #102
fishkens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mymindsok
I went through this song-and-dance a little over a year ago, when my local Ass-backwards, Crap-for-brains, Pro BMW mechanic installed my R90s flywheel without blocking the crank and then tried to leave me holding the bag.
So this local Pro, does he work at a dealer? Are the dealer techs clueless about airheads nowadays? I read in another thread about "heritage" mechanics that worked on older bikes.

I guess my question is, are we on our own now? The last time my bike was in a dealership was 1994 (transmission rebuild) so you can see that I've been out of the loop for quite some time now.

Signed,

Rip Van Winkel waking up from a long nap.
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Old 10-10-2010, 07:57 PM   #103
bmwrench
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Most modern BMW dealerships are not familiar with airheads and/or are too busy keeping the current bikes running to deal with them. Many of the older dealerships have at least one tech who loves and gets most of the airhead work.

Josh Neff used to say that "it only costs a little more to do it yourself". In this case, it may have cost a lot more-but how else does one learn his limitations?
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Old 10-10-2010, 08:04 PM   #104
jackd
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I wouldn't say we are on our own - I would say there are about 3 places to bring your old airhead to in the Vancouver, B.C. area and I don't even know them all - and these might be what you call 'heritage mechanics'. I'm not so sure about the Japanese machines though - that might be tougher. That being said, I do most of my own work but defer to those that know better, if the job seems too involved - and I'm a mechanic.

I'm of the thinking that I do hope the OP does blunder into this one and learn what will be a hard and expensive lesson. He seems to be single minded in his will to get this done by his own hand. Hell, he might even succeed. But I'll put money on it that he makes it worse. We have people like him wrenching at my airline, and most of us learn to give them a wide berth and not get caught up in the vortex of their ignorance and enthusiasm - in our business it could land you in court. All the best, my friend and have fun on your adventure..
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Old 10-10-2010, 11:09 PM   #105
Hawk Medicine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishkens
So this local Pro, does he work at a dealer? Are the dealer techs clueless about airheads nowadays? I read in another thread about "heritage" mechanics that worked on older bikes.

I guess my question is, are we on our own now? The last time my bike was in a dealership was 1994 (transmission rebuild) so you can see that I've been out of the loop for quite some time now.

Signed,

Rip Van Winkel waking up from a long nap.
My local Pro used to have a car repair joint and then went to work for the local BMW dealer. Then, after a few years with them went out on his own, opening a small shop on the West Side of town. Unfortunately, the guy brought with him several very bad habits. He takes peoples bikes apart and doesn't complete the repairs for months and months, cuts corners, double-charges for parts and labor, substitutes non-factory parts for the real thing whenever possible, etc. Hes screwed a bunch of folks but I appear to be the only customer whose gotten mad enough to go legal on him. It took me a year but I finally made him pay up almost $5K.

Fortunately, we're not entirely on our own... I don't personally know of any BMW dealers that still work on Airheads (Though there must be a couple somewhere!) but there are some good and a few great Airhead techs in the business, so it pays to ask some knowledgeable Airhead owners where to get decent work done and then expect to shell out some cash. Most of all, it pays to learn how to do most of the work yourself. No hired hand is ever going to know your bike as well as you do and you could probably never afford to pay a mechanic to take the time necessary to do every little job to the standard of thoroughness that you'd want them done. This is why I keep urging Airhead riders to join the ABC. Thats where the support and the knowledge are and thats a great portal through which one can access those resources.

Tune-ups, oil changes, spline lubes, steering head bearing maintenance, tire changing and all general maintenance items are within the scope of the average rider/mechanic and with some expert coaching, a lot more is possible but Trans and rear drive rebuilds, head work and some of the more difficult jobs, I leave to real experts or pros.

In this case the OP tried to do a pretty routine rear seal change without understanding the entire process and as can happen, stumbled into a hornets nest. I'm hanging in here in the hopes of convincing him not to try fixing this on his own. (Hell... If I was him, knowing what I know, I'd be pulling my hair out and begging for help.) but this bike owner obviously isn't well informed enough to know when to call in Rin Tin Tin and the Mounties.

Oh well.... I should probably just sit back and watch the movie!
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Hawk Medicine screwed with this post 10-11-2010 at 07:01 PM
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