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Old 10-22-2010, 07:00 PM   #31
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderTheX
Shit gas is different from ethanol laden gas. Ethanol is the problem, not shit.

I'm with raider, this bike is sensitive due to the hunt for good power and great fuel economy. If people can't live with the consequences then tough, get another bike. If you are scared to do an around the world trip, don't be because they don't mix their shit like we do, at least they tell you if they do. I will happily use some fuel cleaner while running my bike in the states (no stations around me sell pure fuel ).

Facts:

- Ethanol eats aluminum.
- Most gas stations' gas contain ethanol.
- Ethanol concentration varies and can be extremely high (20-30%) on rare occasions at gas stations that don't give a damn.
- This thread is


In my post "shit" meant ethanol, amongst many other fuel additives. I didn't mean shit like actual poop. I assumed that was a given since this entire discussion has been about ethanol content in fuel. Guess not.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:14 PM   #32
lmclamore
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I am talking about ethanol. Its here to stay and its use will only be more prevalent. BMW needs to make these injectors out of materials that do not react to it. This isn't rocket science but we pay NASA prices for these bikes. Give me examples of other fuel injected vehicle types that are having these problems. Techron and Seafoam are a temporary fix but shouldn't be necessary. The bikes should be engineered to withstand the conditions of the marketed area. That's what the old BMW would do.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:07 PM   #33
EnderTheX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
I didn't mean shit like actual poop.

LMAO! Lighten up Griz I didn't really mean poop either, I seriously couldn't contain my laughter reading this. I hope we are all on the same page.

Can you confirm that third world countries cut their fuel with ethanol? What does "shit" really mean?...
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:19 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderTheX
Can you confirm that third world countries cut their fuel with ethanol?
Well, if you consider Brazil a third world country, then yes, they certainly cut their fuel with ethanol. Because they have such a high concentration of sugar cane growers, they've mandated 25% ethanol in their gasoline since 2007. There are others with high ethanol percentages, such as Thailand with 20%.

I'm just speculating here, but I suspect that at least some of the problems riders are having with clogged injectors have more to do with contaminants from cheap gas than with ethanol. Me? I've bought gas in hundreds of different places all across the western US for almost 30,000 miles now, and I've never had a problem.

Edit: Oregon is one of the states that mandates 10% ethanol in fuel, and so the vast majority of my fill-ups have been with E10. You'd think that if it were such an obvious problem, it would have affected me by now.

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WoodWorks screwed with this post 10-22-2010 at 08:37 PM
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:24 PM   #35
EnderTheX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorks
Well, if you consider Brazil a third world country, then yes, they certainly cut their fuel with ethanol. Because they have such a high concentration of sugar cane growers, they've mandated 25% ethanol in their gasoline since 2007. There are others with high ethanol percentages, such as Thailand with 20%.

I'm just speculating here, but I suspect that at least some of the problems riders are having with clogged injectors have more to do with contaminants from cheap gas than with ethanol.

David
Very true, Brazil is famous for their use of Ethanol. I wonder how sustainable it is, I know in Mexico the farmers rioted because the corn used to make ethanol was inflating the price of their food staple and doing serious damage to working class families ability to survive. Maybe sugar isn't such a bug deal. I had always heard that using algae farms to produce Ethanol is the most space efficient way but not the most cost effective.

Could someone out there enlighten us on the real ingredients on gasoline and how they affect motorcycle engines specifically?
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:29 PM   #36
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmclamore
I am talking about ethanol. Its here to stay and its use will only be more prevalent. BMW needs to make these injectors out of materials that do not react to it. This isn't rocket science but we pay NASA prices for these bikes. Give me examples of other fuel injected vehicle types that are having these problems. Techron and Seafoam are a temporary fix but shouldn't be necessary. The bikes should be engineered to withstand the conditions of the marketed area. That's what the old BMW would do.
+1 Exactly.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:33 PM   #37
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I hate to ask a pertinent question in this ethanol bashfest, but how long had the bike sat before it wouldn't start?

- Mark
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:47 PM   #38
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Well, here's a question to the BMW wrench-heads... what fuel injectors can be used as a suitable replacement? They cant (or shouldn't) be more than $100 each.

Of course ignoring the aluminum fuel pump. Surely there must be a decent replacement part for the sensitive stock injectors. And yes, I understand this SHOULD be a BMW engineering issue but we all know how that goes. Bottom line, is there an available replacement injector that will work with the current pump pressures and fuel map/sensors?
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Old 10-23-2010, 04:12 AM   #39
lmclamore
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Why can't they be more than $100? And I over simplified by narrowing to the injectors. I mean the whole fuel delivery system.
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Old 10-23-2010, 04:45 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmclamore
Why can't they be more than $100? And I over simplified by narrowing to the injectors. I mean the whole fuel delivery system.
Laughing ~ well, seeing as how they'd go on a BMW they probably would be - Bring My Wallet.
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Old 10-23-2010, 04:55 AM   #41
MikeMike
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In lieu of the air filter campaign (they can collapse) did you happen to have them check the air filter?
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Old 10-23-2010, 04:56 AM   #42
raider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
I disagree. The R1100GS, R1150GS, and R1200GS have been circumnavigating the world for years, using shit gas and running beautifully while doing so.
Yes, true.

But I guarantee you those engines are not as finely-tuned as the 800's is. You can be sure that if they're not bitching about the new, hotter 1200 motor over in the boxers forum yet, they will when the inevitable 1250 (or whatever it will be called) comes out. It's simply not possible to keep extracting more and more performance from finite engine capacity without reducing the robustness of the engine and its ability to cope with less-than-perfect conditions - it's why farmers never towed ploughs with racehorses and why Hussein Bolt would make a shit heavyweight fighter.

Fuel injection problems are the way of the future. It's not confined to bikes. My employer has a fleet of several dozen recently-ruined, $100,000 Toyota Landcruiser 200s sitting in East Timor at the moment, because their fancy new common-rail injection engines caught a whiff of diesel that's sold from used Pepsi bottles.

That said, I agree with Woodworks that the contaminant is likely to be from the fuel itself - rust scale from the tanks or lines, debris from decaying pumps, insect larvae, sand, rubber from a mouldering filler hose, etc. Always look for a gas station that seems to use modern equipment and has a high turnover of fuel volume.

Incidentally, Brazil use 85% ethanol blend (for whoever it was who asked). GM-Australia are doing a lot of work on GM's V6 and V8 engine family to make them E85-compliant - most of the issue is with plastics, and most modern fuel pumps contain plastic. So the ethanol dissolves the plastic and the fuel pump sends gooey bits of its melting impeller blades into the lines.
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Old 10-23-2010, 08:18 AM   #43
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Since we are running parallel with another thread I wanted to post my quick Saturday morning google research results in this thread as well...




It seems the problem is not necessarily pure alcohol and aluminum but a severely corrosive acid that results from combination of alcohol and water. Since alcohol is highly hydroscopic (absorbs water) it is inevitable that we will have this acid in our fuel systems.

Here are an article and a research paper explaining the affect of alcohol + water on aluminum.

The article is easier to understand so I will start by quoting that part.


ARTICLE SOURCE LINK


Quotes from the article:

"In the case of aluminum tanks, aluminum is a highly conductive metal that relies on an oxide layer for its corrosion protection properties. Low levels of ethanol, such as E10 (10%), are usually not a problem in aluminum tanks because the oxide layer provides a good measure of protection. The problem occurs when the ethanol content is increased.

There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. "



This is from the conclusions section in the article:

"The available data indicates that aluminum and fiberglass fuel tanks and butyl rubber fuel hoses that are currently being used will fail if the ethanol content is increased to 20%."







Now for the research paper.


RESEARCH PAPER SOURCE LINK



"Aluminum and its alloys are found attacked by fuel methanol. A 2% H2O in methanol and 5% H2O and 15 mg ethanoic acid in ethanol have been found to cause severe corrosion of automotive parts"




"Ethanol has hydroscopic qualities in it that attracts and mixes with water. At lower concentrations of water (up to 0.5% volume at 60oF), the alcohol will mix and remove the water as the fuel is burned and not harm the engine. At higher concentrations, the water will separate from the fuel and pool at the bottom of its container. This “phase” separation form of water in fuel can cause rust and possibly damage the engine. Fuel that is an E10 blend cannot absorb enough moisture out of the air to cause this phase separation"



The research paper proceeds to investigate the inhibitive effect of some extract on the corrosion of the aluminum. The corrosion is assumed throughout the research and demonstrated in the data. In the results it was shown that corrosion increased with the amount of water present.


Anyways, I found this to be sufficient evidence to point out ethanol in the fuel as the major culprit for our clogged injectors

EnderTheX screwed with this post 10-23-2010 at 08:28 AM
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Old 10-23-2010, 08:31 AM   #44
The Griz
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Hmmm.... so it seems this is a very recent to current issue with having corrosives or the formation of corrosives in available fuel. Seems any bike (including the venerable R1200GS) with fuel injection, plastics and metals, will suffer its effects to a certain extent.

Awesome you guys: EndertheX and Raider. This is great info.
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Old 10-23-2010, 10:17 AM   #45
lmclamore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
Hmmm.... so it seems this is a very recent to current issue with having corrosives or the formation of corrosives in available fuel. Seems any bike (including the venerable R1200GS) with fuel injection, plastics and metals, will suffer its effects to a certain extent.

Awesome you guys: EndertheX and Raider. This is great info.
I agree tenfold. I am very impressed with your collective reasoning. I am not impressed at all with BMW's response to this problem. Maybe their engineering department is overwhelmed by too many issues with this design. The new and improved gas tanks are cracking still - that has got to be an expensive drain on their resources.
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