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Old 10-23-2010, 10:35 AM   #46
Indy Unlimited
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsnqust
How often are you putting in the seafoam? thx!
Every fill up gets 3 ounces of Seafoam.

At around 800 miles mine would not start after driving up to the gas station and filling it up several times. I used the tapping the injectors trick and and it would usually start but sometimes only on one piston and at 1200. miles the injectors were replaced since it would not start anymore.
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Old 10-23-2010, 10:42 AM   #47
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not starting

Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
I hate to ask a pertinent question in this ethanol bashfest, but how long had the bike sat before it wouldn't start?

- Mark
Actually no time at all.... I had for about 2 weeks on and off had the f800gs not start up immediately with the starter. It would try and start but would not kick over. Eventually it would after a couple of minutes..

Then I went out one morning about 10am and it did the same thing where it would try to start but never did.. this is why I thought it was the fuel pump... my guess was no gas was getting to the engine since it was definitely trying to turn over.. when the bmw dealership got it they said it was clogged injectors. I just seems that with me running the bike regularly (like every couple days) it would not have clogged... As I know letting my dirt bikes set the carbs gum up.. but that is after a while... not the next day after riding.
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Old 10-23-2010, 10:45 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMike
In lieu of the air filter campaign (they can collapse) did you happen to have them check the air filter?
Yeah they did the recall/warranty work when it was in. Though they said nothing about it being the issue. The said clogged fuel injectors and that they see it all the time. That bmw's fix is to add their injector cleaner every oil change.
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Old 10-23-2010, 11:51 AM   #49
GeorgeinVA
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If the problem is acid eating aluminum and sending it into the fuel injectors then why no old K-bike issues? They had aluminum tanks. Also no failures on R1100 bikes.
Is swapping parts designed 10-20 years ago into new bikes the answer? It would seen logical that parts designed before E10 was common should be failing and the modern parts should last. However the opposite appears to be true?
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:29 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeinVA
If the problem is acid eating aluminum and sending it into the fuel injectors then why no old K-bike issues? They had aluminum tanks. Also no failures on R1100 bikes.
Is swapping parts designed 10-20 years ago into new bikes the answer? It would seen logical that parts designed before E10 was common should be failing and the modern parts should last. However the opposite appears to be true?
Exactly - I believe rugged and dependable construction has been sacrificed during the past 20 years while the product price has steadily risen. We are getting less for more, with exception of more electronic gizmos that many of us never asked for and can't have the bike run without.

In comparison, my 1988 K75C (bottom of the BMW line) was the opposite. The bike wasn't recalled or in for warranty work during my 7 years of ownership. Routine maintenance, a spline shaft, and crash damage was all she cost me for 89,000 miles. The included toolkit contained wrenches, pliers, screwdrivers, spare fuses, tire plugging kit, and the specific tools necessary to remove the spark plugs and both wheels. Every tool was stamped "Made in West Germany" and they worked. The metallurgy was better...nothing felt cheap and it came with a seat I could live with. All this for $6,500.
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:32 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmclamore
Exactly - I believe rugged and dependable construction has been sacrificed during the past 20 years while the product price has steadily risen. We are getting less for more, with exception of more electronic gizmos that many of us never asked for and can't have the bike run without.

In comparison, my 1988 K75C (bottom of the BMW line) was the opposite. The bike wasn't recalled or in for warranty work during my 7 years of ownership. Routine maintenance, a spline shaft, and crash damage was all she cost me for 89,000 miles. The included toolkit contained wrenches, pliers, screwdrivers, spare fuses, tire plugging kit, and the specific tools necessary to remove the spark plugs and both wheels. Every tool was stamped "Made in West Germany" and they worked. The metallurgy was better...nothing felt cheap and it came with a seat I could live with. All this for $6,500.
Exactly. I've been thinking this same thing for quite a while now too. I still can't believe I paid $12,000 for a bike with non-adjustable/non-serviceable front forks, and a crap toolkit that doesn't allow you to fix anything on the bike. I mean, it's a great bike and I love riding it, but jeez. I mean, the R80GS came with a hand pump for fixing flats. Helge Pedersen still uses the one he got with his R80GS to this day!
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Old 10-23-2010, 02:22 PM   #52
Indy Unlimited
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeinVA
If the problem is acid eating aluminum and sending it into the fuel injectors then why no old K-bike issues? They had aluminum tanks. Also no failures on R1100 bikes.
Is swapping parts designed 10-20 years ago into new bikes the answer? It would seen logical that parts designed before E10 was common should be failing and the modern parts should last. However the opposite appears to be true?
The F800s have small micro mist fuel injectors.
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Old 10-23-2010, 06:03 PM   #53
JoelWisman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
I disagree. The R1100GS, R1150GS, and R1200GS have been circumnavigating the world for years, using shit gas and running beautifully while doing so.
Griz, I wish I could agree, but this is simply not true. Even after accounting for the number of bikes in circulation, we see 2 R12GS's with clogged injectors for each F8. We see R1150, K, G, and S bikes for clogged injectors as well.

In my professional judgement as well as that of other dealer service managers I'm in regular contact with, the K72 (650 twin) bikes are some of the most tolerant bikes BMW makes with respect to shit fuel.

I might also mention that I've replaced injectors in Japanese and other European trade-in's as well. This is an ALL BRAND, USA has shit gas problem, and it's affecting cars and trucks too.

As others have so correctly stated, it only takes one load of bad fuel to cause damage to the fuel pump that will clog the injectors down the road.

Jump from brand to brand if you like, it's a great circle so has no effect anyway.

Yes I have heard customers talking about switching to BMW because of the poor fuel systems on their X brand bike.

So what's the problem and solution?

The problem is the pathetic federal government of the United States of America, and Canada too.

Injectors are clogging and pumps are locking up everywhere in the world, but in much lower numbers then here.

The federal government demands and tests for oxygenates and a few other parameters of fuel sold here.

These oxygenates make the fuel more expensive, hygroscopic, and much more corrosive.

The federal government also stipulates solvents and buffers, but these they neither test for or enforce. This is one area we are different then Europe and first world countries most everywhere. In Europe and most other places, fuel at the refineries is tested to insure it won't harm your fuel systems.

But the above is only part of the problem.

All 50 states test despencing stations for measuring accuracy at least once in a while.

A few forward thumbing stations even test for octane.

NOT ONE STATE to my knoweledge, ever tests for energy content, alcohol content, or the presence of solvents and Protectants.

Call your senator, congressman and governor and complaign to them!

BMW might be able to harden fuel systems, but they shouldn't have to. The fuel in the USA shouldn't rot fuel systems that work fine almost everywhere else in the world.

In any case, techron concentrate and BMW fuel system cleaner treats the metal, not the fuel so has an effect even 6000 miles after it is used, though for the most protection every 1500 miles is better.

Adding techron concentrate is not about using an additive, it's about replacing the additive that should have by law already been in the fuel but was not.

If you want to call BMW NA and complaign, be my guest, I would be happy to post the number, but I would rather people complaign about something that is bmw's fault, like, the fuel level sensor on the R bikes, that thing really is a POS.

Oh, last but not least, I'm pretty sure the injectors are the same on the 10's and 11's as the 09's, but can't swear to it.
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Old 10-23-2010, 06:22 PM   #54
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I don't have your mechanical expertise, nor your maintenance experience, Joel. But if ethanol were the problem, it seems to reason that those of us in mandated E10 states (such as Oregon) would be experiencing the fuel injector problem in higher percentages than others. But this appears not to be the case. FWIW, it certainly isn't in my case.

This doesn't seem to be a BMW problem, nor a Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM, Triumph, etc. problem. It's a local dealer and/or local refinery problem. Seems to me, that's where the focus of our ire should be.

David
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Old 10-23-2010, 07:10 PM   #55
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David:

Most states now have E10 as their primary fuel. In North Carolina and surrounding states I can find no stations that advertise anything other than E10 (i.e. there are not automotive stations that advertise sale of pure gasoline).

Following along with Joel, my strong suspicion is that good clean, properly buffered and "additive enhanced" E10 would run quite well in these bikes 100% of the time. It is the occasional fill-up from the crappy gas station that does the bikes in....

Pure gasoline has longer shelf life and is more tolerant of mishandling, water contamination etc. E10 substantially increases the risk of getting bad load of fuel if someone drops the ball along the delivery channel, and I think there are some stations that just don't monitor correctly and/or some suppliers that deliver crap fuel.

I'm wondering if I need to start carrying a mason jar and a test kit on road trips....
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Old 10-23-2010, 08:00 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRWooden
Most states now have E10 as their primary fuel.
I have no info to contradict you there, JR. But AFAIK, only 10 US states currently mandate E10 mixtures.

Your salient point is valid, though. We appear to have no way of isolating ethanol as the culprit here. All I know is that I've certainly been filling my tank with E10 at least 95% of the time for almost 30,000 miles, have never added any fuel supplements like Techron, and have not had any problem with clogged injectors. Perhaps I've just been lucky?

Kinda doubt it.

David
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Old 10-23-2010, 08:31 PM   #57
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Hey Dave... If you would have read the article and paper I quoted you would notice that E10 is generally accepted "safe" for fuel systems because the natural coating on the aluminum (aluminum oxide) protects against corrosion. Higher concentrations of ethanol will cause problems.

Maybe you have been lucky (as I have been) to go to "good" stations.
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Old 10-23-2010, 08:38 PM   #58
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The injector clogging issue definantly varies from geographic l/ political ocation to location.

I doubt if BMW would let me post it, but I viewed a color coded map of in warranty pump and injector replacements. Green= low, red= high, yellow is in-between.

Oregon, Washington, and Cali were green. Colorado was yellow, all of the Midwest was red.

Humidity might be one factor. But I suspect infrastructure is a bigger one.

As a reformed Oregonian (Missuran now) one good thing gov kulangauski (no idea how to spell his name) did while still AG was sue some fuel refineries for dumping shit fuel in Oregon. That was a long time ago, but possibly it's still having an affect.

Shortly before I left volvo, the same problems were occuring in earnest and once again, the Midwest had the worst numbers.

Also you seem to ride the hell out of your bike.

Failures have occured in all use factors, but it's the people putting on the fewest miles a year that are having the most problems.

This issue is complex and I don't know enough about it.

Ethinol is not always a problem. Brazil uses far more ethinol then the USA and yet the injector failure rats is a tenth of what it is here.

3 things I am sure of

Techron concentrate helps

Alcohol, water, other chemicals and elements in fuel, and a lack of additives plays hell with a variety of materials including stainless.

Riding more is better then riding less.

Property taxes in Oregon are too high. Oops, that's four things :)
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:12 PM   #59
WoodWorks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderTheX
Hey Dave... If you would have read the article and paper I quoted...
Sorry, Ender. Been out riding in the Oregon rain. I'll get right on it, I promise!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
Also you seem to ride the hell out of your bike.
Hey, I only do it to avoid fuel deposits.

Quote:
Property taxes in Oregon are too high.
No shit! And I just got my property tax bill in the mail today!

Of course, we don't have any sales tax here, so it all evens out, right?

David

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Old 10-24-2010, 04:35 AM   #60
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Here's an interesting site:

http://www.e0pc.com/talking_points.php

They assert: "There are six mandatory ethanol states, Minnesota, Missouri, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington and Florida. Montana has an untriggered mandatory E10 law. The ethanol law in Washington is not an E10 law, it is a volumetric law, 2% of the total gallons pumped must be ethanol.
That's interesting as it means that except for those 6 states it is "legal" to sell pure gasoline...

Here's site trying to catalog all the places that have ethanol-free gas:

http://www.pure-gas.org/
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