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Old 10-24-2010, 05:18 AM   #61
Reynaldo Farah, Jr
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Gas X FI

Hi all ! Im new here and have been following this about gas. I live in Brazil and gas here has 25% of ethanol in it. Have been riding BMWs for the last 12 years, GSs 1100, 1150 and currently a 1200. I use to ride frequently to Argentina, Chile, Bolivia etc... Never had any issues with clogged FI. One thing that I do almost every day is riding the bike at least 4 or 5 miles.
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Old 10-24-2010, 06:36 AM   #62
lmclamore
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OK...So...if we have a continent-wide problem in North America...Lack of fuel quality regulation and field testing is causing the average gallon of fuel in the US/Canada to be a "crapshoot" of possible impurities...Ethanol mixes only seem to be so detrimental in North America...This is causing fuel-delivery system failures in most makes of gasoline powered vehicles sold and operated in the USA and Canada?

I don't think the world's vehicle manufacturers would accept this in their most profitable market. Their lobbying power is not insignificant. I don't even think "Big Oil" would be interested in additional profit gain at that expense. They both need us fat and happy, driving/riding around in gas powered vehicles for as long as the fuel lasts.

i.e. If "shitty" gas is causing fuel injectors and pumps to be replaced at the vehicle manufacturer's expense, fuel suppliers will be getting the "bill" before long.

Back to BMW - I believe they are more than capable of engineering an affordable solution to this problem. I just hope they do so before Japan shows them the way.
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Old 10-24-2010, 07:16 AM   #63
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Laugh thanks for the info

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
Griz, I wish I could agree, but this is simply not true. Even after accounting for the number of bikes in circulation, we see 2 R12GS's with clogged injectors for each F8. We see R1150, K, G, and S bikes for clogged injectors as well.

In my professional judgement as well as that of other dealer service managers I'm in regular contact with, the K72 (650 twin) bikes are some of the most tolerant bikes BMW makes with respect to shit fuel.

I might also mention that I've replaced injectors in Japanese and other European trade-in's as well. This is an ALL BRAND, USA has shit gas problem, and it's affecting cars and trucks too.

As others have so correctly stated, it only takes one load of bad fuel to cause damage to the fuel pump that will clog the injectors down the road.

Jump from brand to brand if you like, it's a great circle so has no effect anyway.

Yes I have heard customers talking about switching to BMW because of the poor fuel systems on their X brand bike.

So what's the problem and solution?

The problem is the pathetic federal government of the United States of America, and Canada too.

Injectors are clogging and pumps are locking up everywhere in the world, but in much lower numbers then here.

The federal government demands and tests for oxygenates and a few other parameters of fuel sold here.

These oxygenates make the fuel more expensive, hygroscopic, and much more corrosive.

The federal government also stipulates solvents and buffers, but these they neither test for or enforce. This is one area we are different then Europe and first world countries most everywhere. In Europe and most other places, fuel at the refineries is tested to insure it won't harm your fuel systems.

But the above is only part of the problem.

All 50 states test despencing stations for measuring accuracy at least once in a while.

A few forward thumbing stations even test for octane.

NOT ONE STATE to my knoweledge, ever tests for energy content, alcohol content, or the presence of solvents and Protectants.

Call your senator, congressman and governor and complaign to them!

BMW might be able to harden fuel systems, but they shouldn't have to. The fuel in the USA shouldn't rot fuel systems that work fine almost everywhere else in the world.

In any case, techron concentrate and BMW fuel system cleaner treats the metal, not the fuel so has an effect even 6000 miles after it is used, though for the most protection every 1500 miles is better.

Adding techron concentrate is not about using an additive, it's about replacing the additive that should have by law already been in the fuel but was not.

If you want to call BMW NA and complaign, be my guest, I would be happy to post the number, but I would rather people complaign about something that is bmw's fault, like, the fuel level sensor on the R bikes, that thing really is a POS.

Oh, last but not least, I'm pretty sure the injectors are the same on the 10's and 11's as the 09's, but can't swear to it.
Joel thanks for the insight.. do you work for a bmw dealership.
I have spoke with other bmw dealerships than the one that first told me about the clogged fuel injectors and they say they have not seen the problem. So it is good to know if another dealership is seeing this issue
to verify it is in deed an issue. thanks again!!!
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Old 10-24-2010, 07:20 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
The injector clogging issue definantly varies from geographic l/ political ocation to location.

I doubt if BMW would let me post it, but I viewed a color coded map of in warranty pump and injector replacements. Green= low, red= high, yellow is in-between.

Oregon, Washington, and Cali were green. Colorado was yellow, all of the Midwest was red.

Humidity might be one factor. But I suspect infrastructure is a bigger one.

As a reformed Oregonian (Missuran now) one good thing gov kulangauski (no idea how to spell his name) did while still AG was sue some fuel refineries for dumping shit fuel in Oregon. That was a long time ago, but possibly it's still having an affect.

Shortly before I left volvo, the same problems were occuring in earnest and once again, the Midwest had the worst numbers.

Also you seem to ride the hell out of your bike.

Failures have occured in all use factors, but it's the people putting on the fewest miles a year that are having the most problems.

This issue is complex and I don't know enough about it.

Ethinol is not always a problem. Brazil uses far more ethinol then the USA and yet the injector failure rats is a tenth of what it is here.

3 things I am sure of

Techron concentrate helps

Alcohol, water, other chemicals and elements in fuel, and a lack of additives plays hell with a variety of materials including stainless.

Riding more is better then riding less.

Property taxes in Oregon are too high. Oops, that's four things :)
Thanks for the info.. it is good to know.. I really appreciate this!
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Old 10-24-2010, 07:28 AM   #65
WoodWorks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmclamore
Back to BMW - I believe they are more than capable of engineering an affordable solution to this problem.
An engineering solution to contaminated fuel? Even carburetors choke on it, and we're not going back to them.

When I rode in Viet Nam, we used to fill up our tanks through a wad of cheesecloth. Maybe that's the answer.

David
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Old 10-24-2010, 07:37 AM   #66
lmclamore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorks
An engineering solution to contaminated fuel? Even carburetors choke on it, and we're not going back to them.

When I rode in Viet Nam, we used to fill up our tanks through a wad of cheesecloth. Maybe that's the answer.

David
David - Do you honestly believe that the majority of American fuel is contaminated to this degree?

I have a myopic view from here, though. D.C. area gas station never stop pumping. Its hard to image old and contaminated fuel coming from these stations unless it was so prior to delivery.
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:42 AM   #67
EnderTheX
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Here is a solution:

Add Techron fuel system cleaner to every tank if you are super paranoid or every 1500 miles! (I have no affiliation but I'm pretty sure it works).
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:46 AM   #68
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynaldo Farah, Jr
Hi all ! Im new here and have been following this about gas. I live in Brazil and gas here has 25% of ethanol in it. Have been riding BMWs for the last 12 years, GSs 1100, 1150 and currently a 1200. I use to ride frequently to Argentina, Chile, Bolivia etc... Never had any issues with clogged FI. One thing that I do almost every day is riding the bike at least 4 or 5 miles.
This is what I'm talking about. If the the R-bikes can do it, so should the F bikes.

But subscribe to what you will I guess.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:00 AM   #69
oclv454
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Some of you will remember my posts back in the spring about my new to me 2009 F800 not starting. The dealer replaced the injectors. I have been adding the BMW techron and occasionally Seafoam about every fourth tank refil and have been trouble free since. The dealer here is now recommending the StarTron product. They commented that too much techron can be bad and that too much StarTron won't do anything harmful. The previous owner of my F800 lived in SanFrancisco and had a job that caused the bike to sit for a month or more at a time. (sitting, and damp environment). I just re read the full page ad that StarTron had in Rider magazine. It discusses many topics mentioned here. Debris in fuel, water in fuel, fuel going stale quickly, less energy in fuel. I think I will give it a try.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:38 AM   #70
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmclamore
David - Do you honestly believe that the majority of American fuel is contaminated to this degree?

I have a myopic view from here, though. D.C. area gas station never stop pumping. Its hard to image old and contaminated fuel coming from these stations unless it was so prior to delivery.
Certainly the majority of fuel is not contaminated, but I have a buddy that works for a company that installs the tank systems for gas stations. He says, yes, some loads of gas are delivered to stations that are not to standard - water in the fuel, ethanol over 10%, etc etc....

I was in a gas station last summer and the "water intrusion" alarm was going off on one of the tanks - the clerk said it had been going off for two days but the owner hadn't done anything about it ... of course they were still selling gas from all pumps....

I have no idea how we can gauge the size of the problem unless mfg. would see fit to publish fuel system warranty repairs or states would implement better testing standards.

I sent an e-mail to Techron technical support asking for a recommended "maintanence" dose rate.
I.E. the recommended "cleaning" concentration is 1oz/gallon. What would the recommend for use with every tank...
Maybe 1oz/5 gallons? I'll post back if I get an answer.
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:14 AM   #71
WoodWorks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmclamore
David - Do you honestly believe that the majority of American fuel is contaminated to this degree?
Of course I don't. Just as I don't believe that this issue affects the majority of F800GS owners. And if the problem were the ethanol content of our fuel here in the US, it clearly would. And it would affect those in countries with a higher concentration of ethanol at a higher rate. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

My guess is that this is a problem similar to the bent shock bolt, bent rims, cracked fuel tank, etc. It has affected a so far unknown number of owners. And if I were one of them, I'd be pissed too, and would want BMW or somebody to do something about it. But as with many problems that affect an unknown percentage of owners on an Internet forum, it has become, in markjenn's words: an ethanol bashfest. And so far, the evidence would suggest that the cause is something other than ethanol. Otherwise most, if not all of us would have clogged injectors, wouldn't we?

So far we don't know A) what percentage of owners have clogged fuel injectors, nor B) the cause. We have some dealer saying, yup, it's ethanol. But is that dealer on to something, or is he really just pulling something out of his you-know-what to shift blame? I don't know.

If someone can show me a reason to avoid filling my tank with E10 (as I have been doing for 2 years now), then I'll act on that info. Until then, I guess I'll just continue playing gas station roulette.

David
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Old 10-24-2010, 01:27 PM   #73
oclv454
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I just went to the StarTron (www.startron.com) site and looked to see how much you add to fuel. 1 oz per 16 gallons. That's 1/4 oz per tankful. It also says that Startron can be used at the same time as other fuel additives.
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Old 10-24-2010, 02:34 PM   #74
JRWooden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oclv454
I just went to the StarTron (www.startron.com) site and looked to see how much you add to fuel. 1 oz per 16 gallons. That's 1/4 oz per tankful. It also says that Startron can be used at the same time as other fuel additives.
It came out ok in this review/test:

http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/f...icle%20PSL.pdf
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Old 10-24-2010, 05:48 PM   #75
GeorgeinVA
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I still have not seen a convincing argument that it is not a defect in manufacturing. Tanks, pumps, injectors all covered by warranty? That is a de facto admission of guilt. BMW will not pay for what is not a BMW problem.

Dealers who make up lies about changes in injectors, talking about "secret recommendations from BMW" and blaming Sta-bil.

Now it's if you let your bike sit. Oi! And don't forget the havoc it wrecks on carbs.

Please people. My R1100RT will sit for months in the summer. When it gets cold I charge the battery. Next day it runs fine. My F650CS will sit all winter and start in the spring, no need to charge the battery it's an Odyssey. Not to mention my CJ that has sat for over 18 months and started on the second kick. I use red Sta-bil with the last fill up and nothing more and never add anything to the gas when the bike is in daily use. I buy gas at any gas station, preferably the cheapest I can find. I use the lowest grade available. I am trying to abuse and neglect my bike until they fail, but no luck. I have also never had a final drive bearing fail. (Those are also bad parts or improper shimming not customer abuse as BMW once claimed)

If it was fuel my bikes should be affected. The only way to explain my "good luck" is that I have good parts and others do not.

Also if it were bad gas stations then why have they not been reported? Last I checked both BMWNA and BMW rides were familiar with the concepts of lawyers and know how to contact them. I find it imposable to believe that no one has document where and when the fuel in an affected bike was purchased. We BMW riders may be some of the cheapest (I know I am) people around but we are also some of the most meticulous.
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