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Old 11-21-2013, 01:59 PM   #2461
sonoran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WantToRideMoar View Post
Cyberdos, that's not my gripe.

It's more along the lines of this concept, fleshed out perfectly in Atlas Shrugged to its most horrible conclusion but present in insidious ways in most of government today:



If it costs $X to enforce property security through policing of extremely remote areas related to OHV use, and to provide primitive road maintenance of those locations, then divide $X by the number of users likely to use the facilities and that is your fee.

The way it is right now, a person thinks that OHV tag is enough to go anywhere. Then you realize you also need a State Trust permit, or else you're breaking the law and at the subjective mercy of enforcers. Then you realize you need a Tonto permit. Then you realize you need a Bulldog Canyon permit. Then you realize you need a RedRock permit. And the list goes on.

All it does is empower enforcement at the expense of the individual.

If the HONEST cost of operating a dirt bike off-road were presented to be $50 a year, fine, I'll pay it. And I'd lobby to cut services associated with that $50 so that I saw fewer rangers and saw less blacktop leading out to the trails, requiring next year to only be $40, and so on.

But right now the cost is not honest at all. And it is enforcement-biased, where a person is essentially incapable of complying without extensive obscure knowledge that is only gained through experience.

It costs money to run and maintain these areas. Use them and pay. That's called being responsible.

Don't want to pay? Don't ride there.

Seems simple enough.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:14 PM   #2462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoran View Post
it costs money to run and maintain these areas. Use them and pay. That's called being responsible.

Don't want to pay? Don't ride there.

Seems simple enough.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:17 PM   #2463
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I actually like the free permit at Bulldog Canyon.

I can only imagine how crowded the trail would be without the locked gates. I would rather have the drunk litterbugs stay outside the gate and let people who are willing to get a free permit online go enjoy the canyon.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:19 PM   #2464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoran View Post
It costs money to run and maintain these areas. Use them and pay. That's called being responsible.

Don't want to pay? Don't ride there.

Seems simple enough.
Please re-read and focus on comprehension.

There was no complaint of paying for services.

The complaint is the ad-hoc and never ending network of use permits. Whether with a fee, or not.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:35 PM   #2465
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Well some land is federal, some is state. If you want to camp, fish or hike on Indian land there's fees for those too.

It is what it is.

The $25 OHV sticker goes towards keeping our areas open. It's a small price to pay for getting to ride thousands of miles of trails in AZ.

Those areas which require additional fees are well marked, usually lakes and established rec areas.

With an OHV sticker you can traverse State Trust land. If you want to stage or camp on State Trust land then you need a permit.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:42 PM   #2466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WantToRideMoar View Post
Please re-read and focus on comprehension.

There was no complaint of paying for services.

The complaint is the ad-hoc and never ending network of use permits. Whether with a fee, or not.
All you've been talking about is buy this permit buy that permit. If that isn't complaining about paying of services than I don't know what is.

But I agree, enough of that political BS.

As for your going out and riding in a safe area you asked about places out by Florence. You can use Desert Wells which is south of the 60. It a big area and nice an flat. you should have no problem setting up a little track with some cones (we used to use cut tennis balls) to practice out there.

There's tons of good open space by Florence.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:57 PM   #2467
IBRiding
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XB12R View Post
Ricardo, Bill, Paul, what do you have planned for when I'm down your way? That Montana Mountain looks cool. Ricardo, looks like your becoming a real pro, I'm going to have trouble keeping up with you. What tires did you settle on? If you guys have any ideas on trails, let me know so I can google them.
Ron,

Nothing definitive on the rides yet but you know there is usually something going on at least every other weekend. Are there any areas you have been wanting to ride and haven't yet.


Later
Bill
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:21 PM   #2468
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Originally Posted by AZstateParksOHV View Post
Actually, the Bull Dog Canyon permit system was developed to keep the area available to the public. For years, it suffered from illegal dumping, huge parties, and knucklehead abuse by riders. If the gov wanted to flex, they would have just closed it down all together. It is one of my favorite spring wildflower 4x4 trips.
The place I differ with you on here, sir, is that it is immoral for government to selectively establish "good/bad" lists of people to enter areas like BDC in the first place when there is a global permit system in place.

It's classic post-prohibition revenuing tactics.

Government failed to police BDC, despite:
1. It's part of the Usery Pass park, which is already a fee-use area.
2. It's part of the state of Arizona, and supposedly already funded by OHV and State Trust use permit funds.
3. There should have been patrols out there catching and stopping hooligans if any were present.

Classic government response is to shut down access to all, charge money for what is public domain in the first place, then build lists of acceptable people to exercise the use of the item in question.

You present it as "Look how nice government is! The permit is free!"

But it's not free. There's a web server hosting the page. There's a software developer like myself writing the automation of the form submission into a batch of processed documents. There's the laser printer it is output to, to generate a bunch of paper. There's the envelope stuffers in some AZguv office. There's the stamps and letter carrying labor.

That money is either coming out of OHV funds (from people who paid for the OHV tag and don't have access to BDC), or out of the state general fund.

And then you STILL have to have police and/or parks services people go through periodically to ensure lawful and orderly behavior. The lack of police or parks services staff being the reason the facility was shut down in the first place.

Far cheaper than all the web infrastructure and paper mailings... and safer for the public... to just patrol the place properly in the first place.

Quoted again, just to illustrate:

Quote:
Actually, the Bull Dog Canyon permit system was developed to keep the area available to the public.
The audacity to suggest the public not have access to public land.

Quote:
For years, it suffered from illegal dumping, huge parties, and knucklehead abuse by riders.
Or, it failed from a complete failure of government to perform the duties for which thousands upon thousands of OHV tags were paid: Support, law enforcement, and maintenance commensurate with the terrain.

Quote:
If the gov wanted to flex, they would have just closed it down all together. It is one of my favorite spring wildflower 4x4 trips.
They have no right. Gets right back to the whole "King's deer" issue.

Failure to enforce the law on government's part and live up to the contract of fee-use systems in the first place is no excuse to prosecute the law-abiding.

I read your threads from February of earlier this year and I don't blame you for the years or decades of broad-spread government mismanagement of every fund under the sun... but I do urge you to think about the meaning of "public land" and the role of government as its custodian. Government has been empowered by us to protect our land. Not to stiff-arm us away from it and make it as hard as possible to use, and create a myriad of obscure ways to fine us that are nearly impossible to comply with.

I probably broke a dozen laws on a 450+ mile mixed dirt and street ride I did around AZ 4 weeks ago. Who knows how many different-use areas I went through on that ride? It's stupid. As mobile as a dirt bike is, and as obscure as all these special use permits are, it's all empowering enforcement over even the most well-informed wonk that endeavors to keep up with pertinent statutes and events.
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:36 PM   #2469
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Did you get a permit from 750volts to rant in his thread?
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:07 PM   #2470
fanatic291
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:13 PM   #2471
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Man, I just get the ohv sticker and ride wherever I want. Never had a problem. You can ride tonto, red rocks, trust land, wherever. Staging and camping are different, but you can ride anywhere.

And the bulldog canyon permit doesn't decide who's a good guy or bad guy, they just want to control access. If you didn't spend your life growing up here and seeing how the party crowds can trash a place, maybe you don't understand. Just go out into the public land areas and see what the un controlled shooters can do to an area. Sycamore canyon comes to mind. The closer to the road, the worse it is, because they are lazy. They can't even pick up their targets, lunch trash, beer cans, or anything.

Rant all you like, but I prefer a clean national forest.
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:19 PM   #2472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoran View Post
Did you get a permit from 750volts to rant in his thread?
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:32 PM   #2473
Kevinsterner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WantToRideMoar View Post
The place I differ with you on here, sir, is that it is immoral for government to selectively establish "good/bad" lists of people to enter areas like BDC in the first place when there is a global permit system in place.

It's classic post-prohibition revenuing tactics.

Government failed to police BDC, despite:
1. It's part of the Usery Pass park, which is already a fee-use area.
2. It's part of the state of Arizona, and supposedly already funded by OHV and State Trust use permit funds.
3. There should have been patrols out there catching and stopping hooligans if any were present.

Classic government response is to shut down access to all, charge money for what is public domain in the first place, then build lists of acceptable people to exercise the use of the item in question.

You present it as "Look how nice government is! The permit is free!"

But it's not free. There's a web server hosting the page. There's a software developer like myself writing the automation of the form submission into a batch of processed documents. There's the laser printer it is output to, to generate a bunch of paper. There's the envelope stuffers in some AZguv office. There's the stamps and letter carrying labor.

That money is either coming out of OHV funds (from people who paid for the OHV tag and don't have access to BDC), or out of the state general fund.

And then you STILL have to have police and/or parks services people go through periodically to ensure lawful and orderly behavior. The lack of police or parks services staff being the reason the facility was shut down in the first place.

Far cheaper than all the web infrastructure and paper mailings... and safer for the public... to just patrol the place properly in the first place.

Quoted again, just to illustrate:



The audacity to suggest the public not have access to public land.



Or, it failed from a complete failure of government to perform the duties for which thousands upon thousands of OHV tags were paid: Support, law enforcement, and maintenance commensurate with the terrain.



They have no right. Gets right back to the whole "King's deer" issue.

Failure to enforce the law on government's part and live up to the contract of fee-use systems in the first place is no excuse to prosecute the law-abiding.

I read your threads from February of earlier this year and I don't blame you for the years or decades of broad-spread government mismanagement of every fund under the sun... but I do urge you to think about the meaning of "public land" and the role of government as its custodian. Government has been empowered by us to protect our land. Not to stiff-arm us away from it and make it as hard as possible to use, and create a myriad of obscure ways to fine us that are nearly impossible to comply with.

I probably broke a dozen laws on a 450+ mile mixed dirt and street ride I did around AZ 4 weeks ago. Who knows how many different-use areas I went through on that ride? It's stupid. As mobile as a dirt bike is, and as obscure as all these special use permits are, it's all empowering enforcement over even the most well-informed wonk that endeavors to keep up with pertinent statutes and events.
Dude get the OHV sticker and go ride. Maybe you can work off some of your anger issues you have with the MAN
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:08 PM   #2474
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Talking Whoot Whoot!! The little ringer runs again!!!

I put the new top end in the little YZ this evening and she runs great now.
I also put a new clutch cable in and I now just need to set it tomorrow and she'll be good to go for the weekend

Lets hope the rain holds off so I can take her out for a test ride
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:13 PM   #2475
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