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Old 10-28-2010, 06:31 PM   #91
GotMojo?
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You gotta wonder if this bike is a reaction by Honda to the crappy US economy. In the past, younger guys looking for a sport bike would not hesitate to get a loan for a $10-12K 600cc sport bike (like a CBR600RR) even though it was WAY more bike than they'd ever need. Well, those days are probably over, and people are now watching their money a little more closely. Honda figures that a $4000 sportY bike like this CBR250R might entice some of those buyers.

I'm no cheapskate myself, but when I started looking for a street bike last year, I just couldn't see myself spending $10-12K on a sport bike, even though I thought they were the shit (I've lusted after a CBR600RR ABS). It's just too much damn money, in this uncertain economy, to be spending on something that is basically just a "toy". You wonder if we are going to start seeing a trend towards these less expensive bikes...
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Old 10-28-2010, 06:59 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotMojo?
You gotta wonder if this bike is a reaction by Honda to the crappy US economy. In the past, younger guys looking for a sport bike would not hesitate to get a loan for a $10-12K 600cc sport bike (like a CBR600RR) even though it was WAY more bike than they'd ever need. Well, those days are probably over, and people are now watching their money a little more closely. Honda figures that a $4000 sportY bike like this CBR250R might entice some of those buyers.
Well there's that and then there is the fact that in (not sure about most States) but in a significant number of provinces here in Canada we are on a retarded insurance system whereby insurance is based purely on displacement, so it costs me about $600 a year (only basic coverage) to insure my 250cc dual sport from 1983 (read: pretty damn slow :P) and it would cost me the same to insure any bike from 100-400cc and then after that it instantly jumps to about double and keeps going up fairly quickly after. So doesn't matter whether your riding a bike with a low horse power/weight ratio or a high horsepower/weight ratio it'll still cost a stupid amount of money. So if you can make something like the older CBR250RR or 400RR here I think it would sell brilliantly, fast and exciting to ride while still being cheap on insurance. So I, for one, would love to see more small displacement bikes creep into the North American market, possibly just to make ICBC see that it's ridiculous to charge people the same amount to insure a 250cc dual sport that can't even make highway speed on a reliable bases as a 250cc sport bike capable of going much much faster. Anyway there goes my little rant for everybody today :P
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:02 PM   #93
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This bike will be a huge hit if the insurance rates stay low like most 250's.
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Reposado1800 screwed with this post 10-28-2010 at 07:14 PM
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:35 PM   #94
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I'm eager to try it.
It will likely out punch my Ninja down low which will
make bringing it up off of tight apexes a whole lot more fun.
If it has anywhere near the kick of Yamaha's WR 250 x, I'll
take one. ABS... bonus.

I truly don't understand those who would argue for getting a 600
for a few additional bucks. Experientially, they are apples and oranges with one not being better than the other.. just hugely different.

Much is made of the 250 class as an entry level bike and justifiably so.
In the hands of the experienced rider, this class of bike invariably produces huge and enduring grins.

Just ask 2 time AMA Grand National Campion and motorcycle legend, Gary Nixon who scoots a 250 Ninja as his daily ride.
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:39 PM   #95
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Insurance her in CA is often based on displacement, too. When I first looked at a 1000RR it was 3x the price of my 675cc bike. Ducati 1198 was even MORE than the S1000RR! Lame.

If engines give you diminishing returns--that is, HP per liter typically goes down as an engine gets bigger (think 6.0 liter V8 w/400hp vs. 2.0 liter S2000 with 240hp). If a 600cc bike has 107 hp you'd think that at the very least a 250 would be able to crank out at 40. HP per liter should be going up, not down, with the 250R. ???
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Old 10-28-2010, 08:01 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiasmus
Insurance her in CA is often based on displacement, too. When I first looked at a 1000RR it was 3x the price of my 675cc bike. Ducati 1198 was even MORE than the S1000RR! Lame.

If engines give you diminishing returns--that is, HP per liter typically goes down as an engine gets bigger (think 6.0 liter V8 w/400hp vs. 2.0 liter S2000 with 240hp). If a 600cc bike has 107 hp you'd think that at the very least a 250 would be able to crank out at 40. HP per liter should be going up, not down, with the 250R. ???

And they can and do put out big numbers but you'd likely not want to pay the price for them.
GP 125 scoots... albeit 2 strokes put out over 50 horsepower and the 250s kick out over 100 horses at the rear wheel. A big part of the mass market 250 is to lay down affordable, tractable, power for a wide range of riders.

Aprilia's RS 250, street bike delivered over 60 rear wheel horsepower.
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Old 10-28-2010, 08:37 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiasmus
If engines give you diminishing returns--that is, HP per liter typically goes down as an engine gets bigger (think 6.0 liter V8 w/400hp vs. 2.0 liter S2000 with 240hp). If a 600cc bike has 107 hp you'd think that at the very least a 250 would be able to crank out at 40. HP per liter should be going up, not down, with the 250R. ???
It's not the size of the engine that gives you diminishing returns, its the bigger pistons/cylinders/valves that limit high RPM power potential. Put enough cylinders in the engine so you can spin it faster and you can make any power you like.

It's all about RPM. The S2000 spins to 9K RPM, the 6.0L V8 spins to 6K and that's the reason the S2000 makes 60% of the power of the V8 with 35% of the displacement. The bike situation you present is reversed in that the bigger bike has smaller cylinders. A 600cc sportbike inline-four spins to 15K, while a 250cc single probably can't be spun much faster than 10K. So it makes about 25% of the power with 40% of the displacement of the larger bike.

Honda could have put a 18K RPM inline-four in the CB250R and made 50-hp, or a 14K RPM triple and made 40-hp, or a 11K RPM twin and made about 34-hp (about like the Ninja). Instead, they decided to go with the relatively low-RPM single, probably making about 28-hp and presumably getting better low-RPM torque, lower production costs, and perhaps something to differentiate them from the Ninja. I want to hear more about the bike before I decide whether this is a good idea or not, but right now I like the idea of a really high-tech, fuel-injected single that you ride in the mid-range rather than screaming it all the time, even if it only makes 28-hp. Of course, the engine could just be a gutless dog too. The stock engine in my old GB500 was awful - in stock trim, the bike was a looker, but the engine was totally gutless and not pleasant to ride hard at all. We'll have to see.

- Mark
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:03 PM   #98
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Hey Mark... You pretty much nail it.
Yamaha's WR 250 X puts out just shy of 30 ponies from it's high tech single.
It is lusty and torquey in all the right places and feels way
stronger than my Ninja throughout the rev range. Interesting is that the
wee Ninja taps out at 13k feeling a little wheezy as it runs for the red.
The single cylinder WR pull like an freight train all the way up to 10 grand.
Riding the Yammie, I tried to imagine that motor in a sport bike chassis.
Perhaps I'll get that experience with the Honda.
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:10 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markjenn
It's not the size of the engine that gives you diminishing returns, its the bigger pistons/cylinders/valves that limit high RPM power potential. Put enough cylinders in the engine so you can spin it faster and you can make any power you like.

It's all about RPM. The S2000 spins to 9K RPM, the 6.0L V8 spins to 6K and that's the reason the S2000 makes 60% of the power of the V8 with 35% of the displacement. The bike situation you present is reversed in that the bigger bike has smaller cylinders. A 600cc sportbike inline-four spins to 15K, while a 250cc single probably can't be spun much faster than 10K. So it makes about 25% of the power with 40% of the displacement of the larger bike.

Honda could have put a 18K RPM inline-four in the CB250R and made 50-hp, or a 14K RPM triple and made 40-hp, or a 11K RPM twin and made about 34-hp (about like the Ninja). Instead, they decided to go with the relatively low-RPM single, probably making about 28-hp and presumably getting better low-RPM torque, lower production costs, and perhaps something to differentiate them from the Ninja. I want to hear more about the bike before I decide whether this is a good idea or not, but right now I like the idea of a really high-tech, fuel-injected single that you ride in the mid-range rather than screaming it all the time, even if it only makes 28-hp. Of course, the engine could just be a gutless dog too. The stock engine in my old GB500 was awful - in stock trim, the bike was a looker, but the engine was totally gutless and not pleasant to ride hard at all. We'll have to see.

- Mark
interesting analysis Mark so as far as your GB it must have have preformed like an SR500 Yamaha?
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:19 PM   #100
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I recently rode a KLX250 Kawi and honestly don't see what all the fuss is about...that thing was wheezy slow...is that supposed to be fun?

Beginner market? That's the used market.
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:29 PM   #101
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I'm hoping that something else will happen, too. I hope that there is a renewed realization of the practicality of single cylinder motorcycles. I've noted that several posters here have dirt bikes and dual sports, and at least one KTM Duke. These folks are probably already the choir. I hope others are listening.

I really like smaller street bikes, 250's and 400's. But I've also been waiting for a long time for a true modern Super-mono. Before the economic crisis, KTM was working on the RC-4, and Cagiva had a prototype Mito-500 several years ago.

Everyone immediately started comparing performance envelopes and costs of Super-mono's with the 600cc Super Sports. They completely missed the point. They aren't competitors. A Super-mono is simpler, gets better gas mileage, and has all of the performance needed for the street. Without the over-kill power of the 600 Super Sports, I believe that a Super-mono is actually a better platform to make better street riders, if you really want to learn to ride well. The CBR-250R and WR-250X are great starting points. Some in the racing community even make F450's from 450cc MX bikes.

I'll take a CBR-250R single, a VTR-250R v-twin, an RVF-400 V-4 and...an RC-4 Super-mono, please.
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:39 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckracer
I recently rode a KLX250 Kawi and honestly don't see what all the fuss is about...that thing was wheezy slow...is that supposed to be fun?

Beginner market? That's the used market.
if you have to ask maybe you dont get it? I have had many high horse power bikes and some times its about the feel, and a good small or middle weight bike will keep you in tune with what most miss out on when riding.
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:22 PM   #103
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I just said a few posts ago I thought it should be a twin, but that was probably premature. A high tech single does have appeal.
I had a 250 Ninja for a while, even rode it on the track. I've also owned a '06 Husky TE250 (maybe 33 hp at the wheel, rev limiter 12,500 rpm) and an '07 Kaw KLX250S (pumper carb and FMF Q4). Even had a '89 GB500 (been many years, but I remember it being a relatively torquey thumper, not *that* gutless).

The power out of the TE250 was pretty amazing, but I was always worried about how long it would last.

Anyway - good for Honda bringing this thing to the US, I hope it does well.
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:31 PM   #104
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Sharp looking bike, but I think they would have been better served with a twin of some sort. To me a thumper and a sport bike don't really go together... now if they made a real dual sport with this, instead of the crap they have now...
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:56 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbirdsp
Even had a '89 GB500 (been many years, but I remember it being a relatively torquey thumper, not *that* gutless).
Gutless is a subjective term.... the RWHP of the GB500 was about 33. To me it wasn't so much about the lack of power, but the way it made power - wheezy, vibey, and with stock exhaust, mechanically noisy. Hopefully, this lighter CBR250R, with DOHC, liquid-cooling, fuel injection, and counterbalancer, will do much better even if the power will be similar.

- Mark
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