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Old 08-06-2013, 07:33 AM   #2296
Alleycatdad
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I don't recall for sure but I think you can mark it without even starting the bike.

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Old 08-06-2013, 05:10 PM   #2297
Jaimoto
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I guess I must stop bothering people by pm and will post here. Thanks Jeff, Shaun.

After balancing the throttle bodies, manifold pressures at idle looked fine in terms of mbar (380 and 379) but way off in volts, 1,63 and 2,75...
I took a look at a printed diagnostic made by the KTM dealer last year and again, pressure seems kind of fine (371 & 382) but voltages are 1,64 and 3,44...

My understanding is manifold pressure (which is fine) translates into volts (which seem to be wrong) so the ECU knows which cell values apply to each cylinder. If that's true, one of my cylinders is working with a wrong A/F ratio and wrong timing.
After thinking about that, every single noise from the engine sounded wrong to my hears and realized that my left exhaust has an intermittent bubble sound at idle while the other exhaust sounds *fine*. Panic

Hopefully tomorrow will have time to switch the map sensors and see if the hi/low voltage goes to the other cylinder. But meanwhile I made a nice collection of goggled screenshots of 990s idling and ALL of them shows these pretty different voltage values.

Here is how looks mine




The old printed diagnostic from KTM last year



And a few links to bikes with the same different values (including Dusty's)
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=171
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...06&postcount=9
http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewt...hp?f=5&t=15780
http://www.superduke.net/forum/viewt...2511&start=850

So if my bike has a problem at least is quite common
And ... if one my map sensors is bad, how the hell Tuneecu shows that manifold pressure is fine in hPa values, since these hPa values are read from the ECU as volts? my map sensors have to be fine ... right?
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:48 AM   #2298
Jaimoto
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I think I figured it out...

Received a heads up from Jeff -thanks again- about switching map sensors to see if high/low voltage goes to the other cylinder: do not switch the vacuum tubes, the ones going from the sensors to the intakes, they are specific length per cylinder (this comes from KTM)

Microfiche shows one hose is 50mm and the other 125mm. Now all makes sense...

Map sensors read vacuum from cyl 1 and 2 through different length hoses, so they get different volt figures. These volts are sent to the ECU which accounts for the difference so it gets the right hPa figures.
Thus, hPa numbers are calculated from volts, this is true for the ecu, ktm diagnostic tool and tuneecu. And since hPa values are fine, it means map sensors voltages are fine too, they have to work with different voltages.

Does it make any sense?

Also, shitty weather so I won't be switching sensors soon, I think I'll leave the bike as is.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:10 AM   #2299
renogeorge
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Maybe my 2007 is different. My MAP sensor hoses are the same length. Fiche shows both as 125 mm with same part. But it also shows a different left side sensor with 50 mm hose???? Some alternative for non US bike???
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:39 AM   #2300
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You just ruined my day

You're right, fiche shows three sensors and two length hoses. Now, which one goes where...?
The quote from KTM about not switching hoses due to different lengths still makes me think I may be right (not so sure now )
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:46 AM   #2301
renogeorge
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Sorry! A 50 mm hose would be just a little over 2" long. I don't see how that would work given the location of the sensor mounting tab to the frame.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:44 PM   #2302
shawty950
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3 of them

There are 3 in total, 1 each for the cylinders (125mm hoses, connect to inlet) and 1 for external/ambient air pressure(50mm)
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:02 PM   #2303
timbo45
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ECU cables

do you have any cables left
if so I want one
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:44 AM   #2304
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You have finally found it...

There is some dark conspiracy going on here...I could see that to work perfectly the map sensors may have to be measured by ktm at assembly to allow for differences in the sensors within their tolerances, then an offset value being applied to each of them such that so many volts equals this amount of pressure...I could also see them not doing that and figuring the manufacturing tolerance of the MAPs is good enough. I cannot see one MAP being different to another by a factor of two for no reason. I also cannot see why ktm diagnostics need to see both the voltage and the pressure...one should be proportional to the other. I am assuming the reason that TuneEcu shows both is because they could...because both values are made available within the ktm diagnostics...for SOME reason...
As far as I can tell, the hose length is definitely a red herring - the pressure should be almost the same from one end to the other of such a short hose...you would probably want to keep them equal length due to the timing and speed of the pulses, but I don't think the tuning would be responding to the MAP pressure changes this quickly anyway...maybe I am wrong.

Is this offset the reason why when previous posters have swapped MAP sensors they have seen the difference and thought it was a problem, when really it is not...maybe...
Perhaps Alain could chime in here...this offset must have crossed his mind when he was assembling TuneEcu...

[
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goti View Post
I think I figured it out...

Received a heads up from Jeff -thanks again- about switching map sensors to see if high/low voltage goes to the other cylinder: do not switch the vacuum tubes, the ones going from the sensors to the intakes, they are specific length per cylinder (this comes from KTM)

Microfiche shows one hose is 50mm and the other 125mm. Now all makes sense...

Map sensors read vacuum from cyl 1 and 2 through different length hoses, so they get different volt figures. These volts are sent to the ECU which accounts for the difference so it gets the right hPa figures.
Thus, hPa numbers are calculated from volts, this is true for the ecu, ktm diagnostic tool and tuneecu. And since hPa values are fine, it means map sensors voltages are fine too, they have to work with different voltages.

Does it make any sense?

Also, shitty weather so I won't be switching sensors soon, I think I'll leave the bike as is.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:01 AM   #2305
Jaimoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawty950 View Post
There are 3 in total, 1 each for the cylinders (125mm hoses, connect to inlet) and 1 for external/ambient air pressure(50mm)
Thanks. So I'm wrong and both sensors should read a similar voltage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundOz View Post
Is this offset the reason why when previous posters have swapped MAP sensors they have seen the difference and thought it was a problem, when really it is not...maybe...
Perhaps Alain could chime in here...this offset must have crossed his mind when he was assembling TuneEcu...
I already asked Alain about this, will let you know his answer.
BTW, I don't remember reading about people switching sensors and couldn't find any info...what was the outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundOz View Post
I also cannot see why ktm diagnostics need to see both the voltage and the pressure...one should be proportional to the other. I am assuming the reason that TuneEcu shows both is because they could...because both values are made available within the ktm diagnostics...for SOME reason...
Even though we have ruled out hose lenght, there is still something that makes me think sensors have to work with that offset, and that's what you are reffering at.
Tuneecu and ktm tool cannot see pressure, that data is only available through a vaccum gauge. So they only receive one input, volts, and then they calculate pressure based on those volts.
Assuming one of the sensores went bad (shows a higher or lower voltage), how is possible that both tuneecu and ktm tool show a correct amount of pressure in hPa, since that hPa figures are calculated from volts?
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:20 AM   #2306
renogeorge
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The idea of offsets doesn't make sense to me. How would sensor replacements be handled without some process to test the replacement sensor and recalibrate the ECU?

Differences between cylinder vacuum would seem to be explained by mechanical differences between the 2 cylinders--actual compression, valve-seat sealing, etc.

Then again I may be stuck in carb land and missing the whole picture....
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:33 PM   #2307
MAXVERT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renogeorge View Post
The idea of offsets doesn't make sense to me. How would sensor replacements be handled without some process to test the replacement sensor and recalibrate the ECU?

Differences between cylinder vacuum would seem to be explained by mechanical differences between the 2 cylinders--actual compression, valve-seat sealing, etc.
Exactly !

There is only one pressure sensor available in the parts diagram.
Both hoses are 125 mm.
I tune to the map pressure and my bike runs great.

Goti " don't worry be happy"

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Old 08-08-2013, 07:59 PM   #2308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goti View Post


BTW, I don't remember reading about people switching sensors and couldn't find any info...what was the outcome


See post 1634. Didn't see the outcome....

I think someone else noted an offset too...can't remember who.
Seems to make sense to trust the software and use some vacuum gauges if you have real concerns.

By the way, I doubt TuneEcu is reading any voltages directly, except maybe a general supply voltage...more likely just displaying values that the ECU generates, as all the info TuneEcu has it has via obd2-like communications protocol.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:59 AM   #2309
Gustavo.Ramos
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I swaped sensors position and even tried a 690 sensor. No change whatsoever. It all ended up related to fueling and TPS acuracy.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:05 AM   #2310
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I had for a while a innovate LM2 directly connected to the map sensor output.
But i cannot remember to have seen a difference of 1 volt or between the sensors?.

Maybe a bug in tuneecu?, if somebody wants just measure the voltage with a good true rms meter. to see if the voltage output is the same as tuneecu says.

for me i don't care, i use a carbtune to balance the throttle bodies
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