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Old 03-01-2014, 12:54 PM   #2596
Zuber
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Originally Posted by procycle View Post
That link is a great resource. I wish I'd run into it a couple of weeks ago!I've been doing hours of reading a quite a bit of experimenting and this is the only explanation that makes any sense. What is confusing is that the F-L map numbers are labeled "POS". That looks like it means throttle position but I suspect the numbers really refer to some more arbitrary value like 'percentage of switchover' or 'pile of something'.

In my current map the range I need to improve is light throttle cruising. That's 3500-4500 rpm and 6%-12% throttle. Editing the F table in this range seem to have only a very small effect. According to TuneEcu and my LM-2 the MAP pressure in this range is 600-800 which way up on the end of the L tables where there is not much resolution. Again, making it difficult to make the changes in the table translate to better AFR numbers.

Up until yesterday I've hesitated to experiment with the F-L switch numbers mostly because I lack a clear understanding of what those numbers really mean. I did copy the F-L values from the PowerTripp map and that made a big change (too much). I guess I'll go back to the stock F-L table and change values one at a time.
Making the assumption that the F-L table is a hard %Throttle value -

After looking at the various maps I've used, ALL the throttle response problems I've seen are exactly where it would transition over from Load to Fuel maps. The stock 2010-11 map is set to 24% Throttle at 3500rpm. The PowerTripp 2-1 map is 10% at 3500rpm. When in this range I get surging, adding fuel in the F map helped very little and even got worse with adding more fuel.

On to the next assumption, if the fuel provided by the L map is greatly different than the F map, it will create problems when it transitions between the two. In my case, the F map was rich, the L map was lean and the transition between them a sharp switch? It must transition over, hit a rich, worse, condition, change the load and immediately transition back. It runs like you are turning a switch on/off rapidly.

Tell me where I'm wrong?
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Old 03-01-2014, 01:55 PM   #2597
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Hey ProCycle, have you modified the Ign maps? I got a big improvement by smoothing them in that rpm range. Compare PowerTripp's Ign curve to the stock ones.
Yes, I've taken out the spike at 10% throttle and also performed some general smoothing of all the rpm curves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuber View Post
Making the assumption that the F-L table is a hard %Throttle value -

After looking at the various maps I've used, ALL the throttle response problems I've seen are exactly where it would transition over from Load to Fuel maps. The stock 2010-11 map is set to 24% Throttle at 3500rpm. The PowerTripp 2-1 map is 10% at 3500rpm. When in this range I get surging, adding fuel in the F map helped very little and even got worse with adding more fuel.

On to the next assumption, if the fuel provided by the L map is greatly different than the F map, it will create problems when it transitions between the two. In my case, the F map was rich, the L map was lean and the transition between them a sharp switch? It must transition over, hit a rich, worse, condition, change the load and immediately transition back. It runs like you are turning a switch on/off rapidly.

Tell me where I'm wrong?
I can't say anything about you being wrong. Just trying to get my head wrapped around the relationships of the tables. I don't have the throttle typical twitchy throttle response problem. What I have is a range 3500-4500 and 6%-12% throttle where it's borderline lean. Enough to cause a little bit of surging. Adding fuel to the F map or L map (or both) only makes a small amount of difference. The PowerTripp F-L map turned my lean spot into an overly rich spot. It runs better and smoother just needs to be dialed back a bit. I'm unsure of whether to dial it back with bigger values in the F-L table or to lean out the F table now that it is switching earlier.

On another note, running at steady load on the dyno gives me much better AFR numbers than I see in actual riding. Also, according to the LM-2 I think I could benefit a lot from some "accelerator pump" action.
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Old 03-01-2014, 04:47 PM   #2598
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Yes, I've taken out the spike at 10% throttle and also performed some general smoothing of all the rpm curves.

I can't say anything about you being wrong. Just trying to get my head wrapped around the relationships of the tables. I don't have the throttle typical twitchy throttle response problem. What I have is a range 3500-4500 and 6%-12% throttle where it's borderline lean. Enough to cause a little bit of surging. Adding fuel to the F map or L map (or both) only makes a small amount of difference. The PowerTripp F-L map turned my lean spot into an overly rich spot. It runs better and smoother just needs to be dialed back a bit. I'm unsure of whether to dial it back with bigger values in the F-L table or to lean out the F table now that it is switching earlier.

On another note, running at steady load on the dyno gives me much better AFR numbers than I see in actual riding. Also, according to the LM-2 I think I could benefit a lot from some "accelerator pump" action.
One tuning trick is to turn off the L maps (set F-L's to zero), then tune using only the F maps. Then add some L map back to fill in lean cruse conditions. I haven't tried this yet.

Do you have the O2 sensors turned on? They would be fighting you at cruse.

Love to come down and see your setup.
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:13 PM   #2599
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One tuning trick is to turn off the L maps (set F-L's to zero), then tune using only the F maps. Then add some L map back to fill in lean cruse conditions. I haven't tried this yet.

Do you have the O2 sensors turned on? They would be fighting you at cruse.

Love to come down and see your setup.
O2 sensors are disconnected - I have the wideband LM-2 sensors in their place. Once I've got it sorted to the best of my ability I plan on putting them back in. Or not, if I'm happy with the fuel consumption and how it runs maybe there's no need to have them. I've read reports of the O2 sensors improving fuel economy but that may be because it's easy to end up a bit too rich.

Yeah, I may have to resort to turning the L maps off. Been hesitant to do so as I don't want to open up too big a can of worms.

Come on down sometime and I'll give you the ten cent tour of both the store and the shop
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Old 03-02-2014, 01:27 AM   #2600
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Motorcycle, to properly tune the sucksensormap you have to take the tps out of the loop. Just disconnect it, than work from there!

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Old 03-02-2014, 12:44 PM   #2601
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I've thought about doing that.
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procycle screwed with this post 03-02-2014 at 08:19 PM
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Old 03-02-2014, 10:51 PM   #2602
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A couple of breaks in the rain gave me the opportuninty to do some more tuning. All of a sudden I feel like I'm getting somewhere. Instead of editing large portions of the tables I'm down to changing a few cells, making another test loop then changing a few different cells. Most all the light throttle settings from idle to around 70 mph are looking good on the LM-2.
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:33 PM   #2603
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What values are you looking for?

I've got an older wide band and plan on hooking it up next month. I'm running 2-1 exhaust and I have the O2 port welded into the junction of the two pipes. Hope that works ok. I have to do the yearly maintenance first.
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:37 AM   #2604
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Both pots are tuned very differently. I'm afraid the single o2 at the junction will be of little use.

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Old 03-03-2014, 05:36 AM   #2605
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The curve is approximately linear, voltage to mbar.
The two reference voltages given by KTM>
1.62-1.68 v = 350 mbar
3.72-3.78 v = 1.050 mbar
Hi Zuber,

Where did you find these 2 reference voltages? Is that in a diffrent version of the repair manual or something?
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:44 AM   #2606
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I question his definition of the F-L map being defined as the % throttle opening. I've been lead to believe it is a hybrid of factors, a weighting value.
I thought he said injection pulse width.
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:55 AM   #2607
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Man! You guys are killing me with your knowledge of this whole process. I underestimated the complexity of reading and making changes to the map. I foolishly thought I could use my jetting experience to "butt dyno" my 2007 990's state of tune then just jump into a table and start changing values to richen or lean the areas that I felt needed it.

Any advice for an amateur like me--other than "Don't try it"?

Thanks!
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Old 03-03-2014, 09:07 AM   #2608
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Originally Posted by Zuber View Post
What values are you looking for?

I've got an older wide band and plan on hooking it up next month. I'm running 2-1 exhaust and I have the O2 port welded into the junction of the two pipes. Hope that works ok. I have to do the yearly maintenance first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenD View Post
Both pots are tuned very differently. I'm afraid the single o2 at the junction will be of little use.
I have to agree with StevenD. You really need data for each cylinder. Most of yesterday's tuning was spent bumping one or the other cylinder map up or down getting them to track together. For example, at 5000 rpm and 30% throttle my rear cylinder was showing 13.6 and front was 15.3. A single sensor would have led me to believe the mapping at that point was pretty good.

Surging and light misfire seems to start happening from mid 15s and above. The targets I'm aiming for right now are high 14s at light throttle cruise low 14s at moderate acceleration, mid 13s under harder acceleration and high 12s at full throttle.

I would also be concerned with the O2 sensor being that close to the muffler. Outside air gets sucked back in between firing events which could throw any data out the window. I have an external AFR sensor for the dyno and it's pretty much useless if I can't get the pickup tube 3 feet up into an exhaust pipe.
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Old 03-03-2014, 09:21 AM   #2609
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Originally Posted by renogeorge View Post
Man! You guys are killing me with your knowledge of this whole process. I underestimated the complexity of reading and making changes to the map. I foolishly thought I could use my jetting experience to "butt dyno" my 2007 990's state of tune then just jump into a table and start changing values to richen or lean the areas that I felt needed it.

Any advice for an amateur like me--other than "Don't try it"?

Thanks!
I think if it was a single cylinder bike an experienced 'butt dyno' tuner could at the very least make some careful tuning improvements. The fact that the 2 cylinders on the 990 have such different mapping tells me that you need some way to analyze what the maps are doing. The Innovate Motorsports LM-2 has come way down in price. I paid about $350 for the dual channel one on Amazon. That's probably not all that much more than paying an expert dyno operator to create a new tune.

The alternative of course, is to load an existing tune that others have had good results with and run with that. That's what I did at first. After eliminating the airbox I loaded the MotoTrek map and the bike ran great but went from 40 mpg to 37. My goal is to improve the fuel economy by that margin - not make it worse.
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Old 03-03-2014, 09:37 AM   #2610
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Thanks. That is what I was afraid of.

I run a 2 into 1 exhaust and no air box/ITG foam filter. I have loaded up a custom map which works pretty well--MUCH better than the stock setup and map. I just re-installed the secondary throttle butterflies in hopes that will richen me up around 3500-4000 and help with a slight lean surge there. Bike also seems rich (bordering on blubber)y at idle. Don't know what to do about that. But it runs very well other than these 2 small issues.

But I am interested in fine tuning a little more. But it seems that equipment choices for the 2007/2008 are limited. The PC setup looks interesting but, as I read it, there is no "Auto tune" available for the older 990 ECU.
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