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Old 04-08-2011, 03:51 PM   #571
GlobalTech
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Chris, I've only just put the Akra map on my 990 (09) and have to agree that bikes feels wonderful, no flat spots, pulls from low down and totally erradciated the intermittent stumbles (felt lean below 4k on standard map).

I hesitate to think what the MPG might be (only did 50 miles today), but the fuelling increase is much less on the 09 between standard and Akra.

I'd be interested to see if disabling the O2 sensors and running the std map improved matters.....
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:59 PM   #572
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Stock Map: Disable O2 Initial Results 2008 990

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Originally Posted by GlobalTech View Post
Chris, I've only just put the Akra map on my 990 (09) and have to agree that bikes feels wonderful, no flat spots, pulls from low down and totally erradciated the intermittent stumbles (felt lean below 4k on standard map).

I hesitate to think what the MPG might be (only did 50 miles today), but the fuelling increase is much less on the 09 between standard and Akra.

I'd be interested to see if disabling the O2 sensors and running the std map improved matters.....

Rode about 50 miles since my last post (freeway) after reloading modified stock map (U.S.) with unchecked (disabled) O2 sensor box.

Did the 15 min reset.

Initial results: 4K flat spot is GONE for now. I purposely rode right at 4K RPM for miles at a time, then accelerated up to 6-7K RPM. Prior to the reload, I was feeling that flat spot pretty good on the stock mapping. In fact it was bugging the Sh**T out of me on a trip I took last weekend.

I just pray it stays like this. Not quite sure what or if there are any negative effects to disabling the O2 sensor - BUT, since it already IS on the AKRO map, couldn't be too big of a deal I suspect.

Don't know about:

1. Altitude adjustments?
2. Fuel mileage?
3. Other?

Anyone feel free to chime in on this topic, as it was an easy adjustment to make.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:53 PM   #573
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OK guys, I spent the afternoon fooling around with TuneECU on my 2007. I have had the usual complaints since new (bought brand new in 2010!) - poor MPG (30-35), horrendous unpredictable flat spot around 4000 RPM, crappy running at lower revs (i.e., around town). I had some fun cutting and pasting tables and did a few test runs. Here's what I have discovered for my *all stock* 2007 - YMMV. The only mod on my bike that might be relevant is a 16T front sprocket.

My ultimate goal here isn't more power, because about 90% of the time, I am forced to ride in the first 10% of throttle opening anyway. All I want is no more flat spot, clean running and better MPG. In fact, I'll gladly give up some power to get those things.

Using the Diagnostic page, it looks like all the sensors are acting properly. I seem to have loaned out my carb sync tool, so I'll have to balance the throttle bodies later. However, when I finally get around to removing the air injection, I won't be a bit surprised to find something fouled up under the tanks somewhere.
  • First I wanted to try the 09-10 OEM map. If you compare maps, you will find that the fuel tables for this map are richer than the 07-08 OEM map, but not as rich as the 07-08 Akrapovic map. I wasn't sure if I could upload this map directly to my 2007 ECU, so I didn't try. I cut and pasted the tables into a stock 07-08 map file. The low speed running improved GREATLY. However, the Satanic flat spot was even worse than before and seemed to happen with greater consistency.
  • I had a gut feeling that the 2nd Throttle opening might be producing the flat spot, because it feels an awful lot like a CV carburetor when the diaphragm is torn! So I increased the 2nd Throttle table to 100% across the board. Satan, laughing, spread his wings, and the flat spot reared its ugly head once again.
  • Next I loaded the 07-08 Akrapovic map. Keep in mind that I have stock pipes and intake. This map was way too rich everywhere, the low speed running was no good. However, the flat spot was completely gone! Sweet. Notice that this map has the O2 sensor and EPC options disabled.
  • I reloaded the stock 07-08 map and disabled the O2 sensor option. Same old kludgy low speed running as always, NO FLAT SPOT. It seems for my bike, at least, that the O2 sensor is responsible for the flat spot. I can think of a few questions on this topic, for instance, what exactly is the O2 sensor doing to the fuel tables (i.e., I assume it would place a trim value on whatever table is in use based on its voltage output), can we do anything about that, and should we even care to, since un-checking the O2 box apparently fixes the problem!
  • Finally, I figured I'd try to put the best of both worlds together. I opened a stock 07-08 map and pasted in the F1, F2, L1, L2, 2nd throttle and F-L switch tables from the stock 09-10 map. Then I disabled the O2 sensor and EPC option. I left the I1 and I2 (ignition map) alone. The 09-10 bikes have more advance. I may try that later.
I had a little blast around town with this map and it is a HUGE IMPROVEMENT. I could not make the flat spot happen at all. From a standing start, you can dial in a set amount of throttle and the bike accelerates very smoothly, no more dips in the output like it had before. And perhaps most satisfying, the throttle response is good enough that I can lay it into a slow corner on the gas and power out without touching the clutch - previously, I was always slipping the clutch in slow corners, because I could never tell what in the hell it was going to do next - cough, hit the flat spot, or suddenly accelerate. The low end isn't 100% perfect, for instance, below 2500RPM or so, it gets a little herky-jerky, but still much better than before. But v-twins are not exactly known for smooth running off idle, and that's clutch-feathering speed anyway.

I discovered a few things while comparing maps that might be useful to others. When considering the 07-08 stock vs. Akrapovic, the only changes are to the F and L tables. The ignition maps and 2nd throttle are the same. This holds true for the 09-10 stock and Akra maps as well.

Now, keep in mind that this is a total shade tree hack job of a map without any scientific basis and zero R&D, but considering the total investment of NOTHING, it is making me pretty happy with my big orange beast right at the moment. If anyone wants to try the map out, you can hack it together using the info above, or PM me and I'll send it to you. No warranty expressed or implied, if your bike is made to implode, explode, initiate a quantum singularity, leak oil, get 2 MPG or just smell bad, please take a video so we can all get a good laugh out of it.

I have to say, I actually had a good time trying stuff out with TuneECU. It beats the holy hell out of pulling the carbs fifty times to change jets. Of course, the carbs probably ran better to begin with...
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:58 PM   #574
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I did the same today, put the stock map back in and warmed the bike up fully then tried to hold the throttle on the stand in neutral at 3500 and 4000 rpm and the tach would wander up and down. So i disabled the o2s and downloaded it and did the same test and was able to hold a steady rpm. I couldnt believe it so i went back and enabled the o2, and the wander was back, so i put it back to the 02s disabled and the hunting was gone..

Unable to ride it today, pissin rain and cold..

So my question, is this the switching between the open and closed map that i am noticing as hunting or that others are calling a flat spot?
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:11 PM   #575
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So my question, is this the switching between the open and closed map that i am noticing as hunting or that others are calling a flat spot?
I don't know about an open vs. closed map, but the way I understand, the F map is based around RPM vs. throttle position, and the L map is based around RPM vs. manifold pressure. Then, the F-L Switch map determines the RPM and throttle position at which the ECU switches from the F to the L map. I notice that the 09-10 map switches to the L much earlier than the 07-08 map, which may partially explain why it seems to run smoother. Of course, I may not understand any of this at all, in which case please feel free to call me an idiot.

My question would be, is there another table that we are unable to see/edit that the ECU uses as a target value for the O2 sensor? Because, clearly, if the O2 causes the flat spot, it is just trying to cut emissions to a level lower than the engine is willing to run with. Fine, and if that's all it's doing, I see no reason to run with it enabled from here on out.

As far as altitude compensation, well, there is a barometric pressure and manifold pressure sensor. Can those do the job without the O2? Dunno. Guess I'll have to take a ride up in the Sierras when the snow melts!
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:30 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by jetpoweredmonkey View Post
I don't know about an open vs. closed map, but the way I understand, the F map is based around RPM vs. throttle position, and the L map is based around RPM vs. manifold pressure. Then, the F-L Switch map determines the RPM and throttle position at which the ECU switches from the F to the L map. I notice that the 09-10 map switches to the L much earlier than the 07-08 map, which may partially explain why it seems to run smoother. Of course, I may not understand any of this at all, in which case please feel free to call me an idiot.

My question would be, is there another table that we are unable to see/edit that the ECU uses as a target value for the O2 sensor? Because, clearly, if the O2 causes the flat spot, it is just trying to cut emissions to a level lower than the engine is willing to run with. Fine, and if that's all it's doing, I see no reason to run with it enabled from here on out.

As far as altitude compensation, well, there is a barometric pressure and manifold pressure sensor. Can those do the job without the O2? Dunno. Guess I'll have to take a ride up in the Sierras when the snow melts!

Lemme know and I'll join ya. Hell with all the snow it probably won't be until June.
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Old 04-08-2011, 07:41 PM   #577
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I don't know about an open vs. closed map, but the way I understand, the F map is based around RPM vs. throttle position, and the L map is based around RPM vs. manifold pressure. Then, the F-L Switch map determines the RPM and throttle position at which the ECU switches from the F to the L map. I notice that the 09-10 map switches to the L much earlier than the 07-08 map, which may partially explain why it seems to run smoother. Of course, I may not understand any of this at all, in which case please feel free to call me an idiot.We are talking the same thing on maps i just used the wrong terminology...And the F-L switch has been discussed in this thread, it hasn't had a lot of comments of who has tried lowering the values and what the final verdict is, i lowerd mine just a small amount last fall and didn't get to ride it..

My question would be, is there another table that we are unable to see/edit that the ECU uses as a target value for the O2 sensor? Because, clearly, if the O2 causes the flat spot, it is just trying to cut emissions to a level lower than the engine is willing to run with. Fine, and if that's all it's doing, I see no reason to run with it enabled from here on out. Don't think so

As far as altitude compensation, well, there is a barometric pressure and manifold pressure sensor. Can those do the job without the O2? Dunno. Guess I'll have to take a ride up in the Sierras when the snow melts!...don't think so on this one also..edit; but i bet it wont be a problem at altitude.
Hopefully someone with more knowledge then me will chime in...
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:33 PM   #578
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Ok, so the values we see in the map are dwell time or pulse for the injectors.

jpm, that was a bold move coping the whole tables, way to go for it. (Nice woodwork in that old house ya got there... Looks alot like mine.)

It looks like my next test will be with my stock map and the o2s on and play with the switch points for the maps.

I am looking at the L1 & L2 table out of the arka map, wondering and thinking this might be something i might try in my stock map. The stock map looks way lean in the 2800 to 4500 rpm and lower air pressure 200 to 335 hPa, which is the around the 5% throttle opening area... compared to the Arka map...
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:13 PM   #579
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Lemme know and I'll join ya. Hell with all the snow it probably won't be until June.
Let me know when you guys go. I'll join you and give you hope(by letting you ride a nicely tuned one). Now I'm going to have to go back and read this whole page. Sounds like some progress is being made.
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:54 PM   #580
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Let me know when you guys go. I'll join you and give you hope(by letting you ride a nicely tuned one). Now I'm going to have to go back and read this whole page. Sounds like some progress is being made.
That would be awesome. I may end up just dropping this thing off at the dyno shop and letting them have at it eventually. Of course, it's not quite that simple, is it?

I took another ride tonight and the flat spot is most definitely still gone, though the low speed fueling doesn't feel quite as good as it did this afternoon. Still an improvement, though. A few weeks ago I rode a Triumph 675 - talk about spot-on fueling, man, that throttle felt like it was connected to an electric motor. If only...
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:38 AM   #581
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That would be awesome. I may end up just dropping this thing off at the dyno shop and letting them have at it eventually. Of course, it's not quite that simple, is it?

I took another ride tonight and the flat spot is most definitely still gone, though the low speed fueling doesn't feel quite as good as it did this afternoon. Still an improvement, though. A few weeks ago I rode a Triumph 675 - talk about spot-on fueling, man, that throttle felt like it was connected to an electric motor. If only...

Go back to the original map. Take the fuel tables from just 4K area on the new map and put them in. Then smooth the numbers at -4k and +4k. so the transition is not too much of a jump. Problem solved. Of course I'm talking crap cause I haven't read your first post all the way thru yet.
You really need a TPS value. Take and mark the throttle housing with your womens brightest nail polish(after the bike has been ridin for awhile to get warm). Somewhere easily visible while you are riding. Hook up TuneEcu so you can read your TPS. Now twist the throttle slowly and mark the grip to line up with the index mark that you did on the throttle housing. Mark say 5,10, 15 and 20% TPS readings. Also, Pay very close attention to flat spots or stumbles. Do they happen all the time regardless of uphill, downhill or flatland riding? Or is it just at say slight downhill when easing back on the throttle. If only in certain times, the problem is likely in the RPM vs MAP(below 6% deal). If for instance it is a flat spot that always seems to happen at 12% TPS 4K then add fuel in the RPM vs TPS and see how it goes. You will never hurt anything by adding fuel and flat spots are lean. Stumbles are rich and when leaning out you better make sure your taking fuel out at the right spot.

Don't take your bike to a dyno unless he has proof he can fixed the fueling in another LC-8 and you can test ride it. They won't spend the time it takes to do it right when they can pop some rice rocket on there and tune it quicker(=more$$$ for them). Or when your done at the dyno and not happy, I'll charge 2X what he did, guarantee results, spends days tuning it and on the last day take you riding up here for fine tuning to customize to your riding style. Maybe I should do a high HP race gas one for doing burnouts at the Starbucks. Cause where else are we going to need more hp.
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Old 04-09-2011, 03:09 PM   #582
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Thanks Tahoe. Point taken on the dyno shops. The only guy with a dyno here in Sacramento (that I know of) that I'd trust to do any work is Karl at Motorcycle Machining Specialties. He is a great guy. But, it sure seems like LC8 experience is a prerequisite, or you're just paying your mechanic to learn on your bike, at a high hourly rate!

I made some more changes in my map today. I turned the F-L switch points down lower. Back in post #163 in this thread, someone suggested that. I also realized that I don't need my Twinmax to sync my throttle bodies, in fact, I'm not even sure they have vacuum ports? I did it with TuneECU. They were waaay off, to the tune of 100 points. The bike idles like never before and seems a bit smoother all around.

I also compared the stock 09-10 ignition maps to my stock 07-08 and realized that while total advance is a few degrees higher, the rest of the map has advance that comes in somewhat later. So, I am now running basically an 09-10 map in my 07, with a tweaked F-L switch map, and it runs GREAT. No, seriously - it pulls smoothly around corners with no clutch from under 2500RPM. I'll take that. And no flat spot. I know this doesn't help any for 09-10 owners with fueling complaints, but it sure might help guys with earlier bikes.

Now to ride it this week and see how the MPG suffers with the O2 sensors turned off.
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:45 AM   #583
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I'll charge 2X what he did, guarantee results, spends days tuning it and on the last day take you riding up here for fine tuning to customize to your riding style.
When are you heading out to the SE US for a working session? You need some warmth, some sun, some sandy beaches!
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:32 AM   #584
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Hi,

just a quick qestion, maybe you Adventure guys know it

I have a SuperDuke 06 990 FI. Now I'm using a .hex PCIII-dyno map made with O2 eliminators installed (from another superduke.net forum member with the same bike specs). The SD now has "home-made" O2 eliminators (just plugged 2-2 resistors into the plugs and try to make them water resistant).

I would like to put back the O2 sensors and disable them in the TuneECU. I don't have money for the O2 eliminators, I think they are overpriced if I can simply disable them in the TuneECU

Anybody knows that the A/F mixture will be leaner or richer?
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:53 AM   #585
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Hi,

just a quick qestion, maybe you Adventure guys know it

I have a SuperDuke 06 990 FI. Now I'm using a .hex PCIII-dyno map made with O2 eliminators installed (from another superduke.net forum member with the same bike specs). The SD now has "home-made" O2 eliminators (just plugged 2-2 resistors into the plugs and try to make them water resistant).

I would like to put back the O2 sensors and disable them in the TuneECU. I don't have money for the O2 eliminators, I think they are overpriced if I can simply disable them in the TuneECU

Anybody knows that the A/F mixture will be leaner or richer?
Hello, I understand q you have to download your map clear O2 boxes and then reload your map with the deactivated O2 boxes, I hope to be useful, the language we distance much.

atte Saludos

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