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Old 07-08-2011, 08:34 AM   #1036
Alleycatdad
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Also...

There were a bunch of "PM sent" posts about a recent map that was offered for testing on this thread.

Any results?



Steve
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:36 AM   #1037
bouboule
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Thanks for this long explain. I'm passion by ECU's technologie.

I search but not understand exactly why the engine is'nt smooth on low rpm/trottle....

The carb model is perfect even the stroke tall...

A friend have a 1200 XTZ and no problem with the trottle ! The trottle is drive by wire but even, why this problem on our EFI?

If you have idea or THE solution to help us..... I'll !!!

More one point: Do you think that'is a good idea to only use the F maps? I've so more fuel when the trottle is cut and on L maps there is not possible to limit this....

But on F maps, I can reduce the 0% column...


THnaks for all !!!
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:58 AM   #1038
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Steve, you talk about a test map... Where is it?

If I can give us some help and try maps on my 08, no problem !!

Tanks !!
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:14 AM   #1039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bouboule View Post
Steve, you talk about a test map... Where is it?

If I can give us some help and try maps on my 08, no problem !!

Tanks !!

Wasn't mine. IF, and I do mean IF I am happy with my current setup I do plan to offer it as a starting point for others but I'm not there yet.


I am curious about how that map worked for others, though!

==You said:
I search but not understand exactly why the engine is'nt smooth on low rpm/trottle....


==

If you are talking about on/off throttle transitions, I can't help much. If you are talking about the surging/rpm hunting that I had with the stock map at small throttle openings and steady throttle, I pretty much fixed that by adding--contrary to many experiences here--fuel in the areas where it was occurring. To address this issue you pretty much have to have your throttle marked so that you can get a good idea of where the problem happens relative to rpm/%TPS.

===You asked:
More one point: Do you think that'is a good idea to only use the F maps? I've so more fuel when the trottle is cut and on L maps there is not possible to limit this....

But on F maps, I can reduce the 0% column...

===
According to power-trip, and I have no reason to disbelieve him, this may not be working the way we thought it was. Although it may not be possible to run completely on the F maps vs the L maps, I have had good luck with turning down the F-L switch to 12, 12, 5, 0,0,0,0,0 and tuning the F maps only. While it may be that the L maps are still becoming active (see my questions above) during acceleration, I have seen significant results working in this manner.

As for reducing the 0% column, I haven't tried this yet.

Steve
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Alleycatdad screwed with this post 07-08-2011 at 12:12 PM Reason: F-L stuff
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:14 PM   #1040
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Ok, if you want to share your map to try on an other adv, i'm your boy ;)

I've the surge problem but too the on/off cut and on off road it's a really handicap!!!

It's possible that come because so more fuel is put when the trottle is off so when you go on: boom!!

What do you think about second butterfly? For smoother throttle on low rpm, do you mean that it's better off or more open??

I've make some test to better understand F/L switch:

I've put -30% on the F map on low rpm low trottle:
Result, the same afr!

So I can now say tha the transition use trottle percent and switch with interpolation betwee
L and after F maps...

But thats don't solve our problem of fueling ;)


On cars, when you cut throttle, you have a very very leaner afr.
On our ADV, we have som value around 11-12 in the same case!!!

How can we make?!
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:28 PM   #1041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bouboule View Post
Steve, you talk about a test map... Where is it?

If I can give us some help and try maps on my 08, no problem !!

Tanks !!
I created a full chart (F1, F2, L1, L2) showing the difference, in percent, on what changes where made going from the US 07 map to the AKRA map. It is very interesting to look at the changes made. I then created a new map based on half way between the standard and the AKRA. The reason for this was that I found my 07 ran much better in terms of surging on the AKRA map but the millage was poor. I am try to get a good balance between millage and smoothness. The files can be downloaded from here https://public.me.com/abrotz

Cheers
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Old 07-08-2011, 02:18 PM   #1042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaTera View Post
I created a full chart (F1, F2, L1, L2) showing the difference, in percent, on what changes where made going from the US 07 map to the AKRA map. It is very interesting to look at the changes made. I then created a new map based on half way between the standard and the AKRA. The reason for this was that I found my 07 ran much better in terms of surging on the AKRA map but the millage was poor. I am try to get a good balance between millage and smoothness. The files can be downloaded from here https://public.me.com/abrotz

Cheers

Hey, that chart's really cool! How'd you go about that?

Thanks!

Steve
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Old 07-08-2011, 03:30 PM   #1043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bouboule View Post
What do you think about second butterfly? For smoother throttle on low rpm, do you mean that it's better off or more open??



I'm still playing with this. I added some opening to the low end of my map to try to emulate the football (american) shaped scondary butterflies and hae been pretty happy with that. It did not help off to on throttle transitions but did seem to soften on-to-off throttle transitions; this helps with weight-shift induced operator feedback looping.

I think it's pretty safe to experiment with secondary throttle opening; maybe safer than any other area in tuneEcu. My logic is based on the fact that some have removed the secondaries completely without remapping and without ill effect; in theory this means you could set the second throttle to 100% everywhere and work backwards if you wanted.

I have a basic belief that KTM did not set out to create a motorcycle that drives poorly and that someone, somewhere put significant thought into the base second throttle settings, so using those as a starting point makes sense to me.

Steve
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:52 PM   #1044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaTera View Post
I created a full chart (F1, F2, L1, L2) showing the difference, in percent, on what changes where made going from the US 07 map to the AKRA map. It is very interesting to look at the changes made. I then created a new map based on half way between the standard and the AKRA. The reason for this was that I found my 07 ran much better in terms of surging on the AKRA map but the millage was poor. I am try to get a good balance between millage and smoothness. The files can be downloaded from here https://public.me.com/abrotz

Cheers
I am going to give it a try tomorrow and give you feedback. I get 35-40 on the akro map. How much did you change the secondaries? The off I think is my issue because usually its slowing down to the low throttle point where its almost cutting, and not slowing a little bit slower.

To me the akro map smells fairly rich in the lower rpm but of course i can't really tell in the upper rpms.

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Old 07-09-2011, 01:07 AM   #1045
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Hi, Thanks for this file !!

I'll try on my ADV and give you a quickly feedback.

Just one question, I use actually a europe map 08 version.

You send an US map, and when I compare, no difference between Ignition table ??!

I've ever think that the big difference but never compare this maps !

You run with 91'octane?
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:16 AM   #1046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleycatdad View Post
I'd like to know more about the F-L switch, given the new information from Power-Trip. I wanna be clear that my questions in this thread are in no way meant to question the accuracy of his information, which he has so generously shared with us, but rather to clear up my misunderstandings of how this all works. There's a LOT here that we've not had access to via carb jets, so please be patient with me...

1) So, what you're saying is that the F-L switch, despite it's name, is not a "hard" switch. I'd like to know more about the numbers on the tps scale; you state that they are not TPS% but are on the order of some multiplier of tps%. Max value of 50 equates to what in %, do you think?

2) My understanding from your post is that F and L maps are not discrete but may be mixed during acceleration? Does the L map therefore act as a sort of "accelerator pump"? Does the F-L switch influence this?

I'm trying to understand, now, the actual function of the F-L switch. You reference the Triumph forums, but the Triumph uses a Sagem Ecu and we have Keihin; there are functional differences but I do not know specifically what those are. There are posts floating around KTM forums (sorry, can't link em I've read thousands of posts and can't remember where they all were...this is complex stuff) in which users took significant tuning detours due to differences in Triumph/KTM ecus. Is it safe to assume that the F-L function is the same between them?

Thanks!

Steve
...always happy to ask the stupid questions....
Steve,

1 - Not a hard switch. Somewhat of a priority switch, with different levels of interpolation being done at different engine speeds and loads, as vacuum changes. As for the max value, at this point, is it very close to 50% TPS. At lower values this changes more.

2 - They are mixed at all points, not just under acceleration. At higher loads and engine speeds, there is less influence from the MAP tables due to reduced vacuum in the engine, and different engines act in a varying manner. This is not an acceleration compensation table, with amplification and decay values (I have been asking Alain for access to this), but the MAP tables can be used to work around until we have access to accel comp, ram air comp, etc.


The last Triumph to use the Sagem ECU was the 2006 Daytona 955i. Triumph started using the Keihin ECUs on each new model in 2005 (build dates of 2004). All current models use the Keihin ECUs. As do other KTM and Aprilia models.

I suggest referencing the Triumph forums since TuneBoy/TuneEdit is a very similar tuning solution, and has been available for considerably longer than TuneECU (released in May of last year). As a result, there is considerably more information from those using TuneEdit than TuneECU. Also, realize that some of the information for TuneEdit and TuneECU has changed with newer version changes of each.
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Old 07-09-2011, 07:58 AM   #1047
bouboule
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I've try to only run the F map with 0% value on F/L switch: not better than the L map...

The on/off cut is ever present !

I've try the carbs model and you have a longer response time when you change throttle position, so I think that's the really problem!

But tuneecu doesn't permit to acces on all parameters.... Do you think that an evolution is in pipe? Does Tuneboy permit this?

The ideal parameters, like Car's ecu will be injectors reaction or throttle response or other parameter to modify the ECU reaction...

What do you think about this??
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:19 AM   #1048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Power-Tripp View Post
Steve,

1 - Not a hard switch. Somewhat of a priority switch, with different levels of interpolation being done at different engine speeds and loads, as vacuum changes. As for the max value, at this point, is it very close to 50% TPS. At lower values this changes more.

2 - They are mixed at all points, not just under acceleration. At higher loads and engine speeds, there is less influence from the MAP tables due to reduced vacuum in the engine, and different engines act in a varying manner. This is not an acceleration compensation table, with amplification and decay values (I have been asking Alain for access to this), but the MAP tables can be used to work around until we have access to accel comp, ram air comp, etc.


The last Triumph to use the Sagem ECU was the 2006 Daytona 955i. Triumph started using the Keihin ECUs on each new model in 2005 (build dates of 2004). All current models use the Keihin ECUs. As do other KTM and Aprilia models.

I suggest referencing the Triumph forums since TuneBoy/TuneEdit is a very similar tuning solution, and has been available for considerably longer than TuneECU (released in May of last year). As a result, there is considerably more information from those using TuneEdit than TuneECU. Also, realize that some of the information for TuneEdit and TuneECU has changed with newer version changes of each.

Thanks!

Steve
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:47 AM   #1049
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This thread is great!

I been lurking on this forum for some time, it really aided in my decision to pick up an 08' 990 adv.

I kinda dismissed the whole "throttle snatch" issue thinking it couldn't be all that bad... It is that bad. I have read this entire thread from start to finish, many entries multiple times (Tahoe, Spark, Alleycatdad, Power-trip, and Cyborg posts especially) searching for THE solution. I downloaded TuneECU and built a cable. Hooked my bike up for the first time yesterday!

The previous owner told me the bike was loaded w/ the Akro-map (since it has Akro's on it). I thought I must be getting great mileage since my average for the 640 miles I've owned it has been 40 mpg (U.S. gal at roughly 5-6000 ft elevation). Turns out the bike had the stock map on which explains the deceleration popping and the flat spot.

Getting back on track.. I loaded the Akro map yesterday, 15min idle, then took it for a spin. Decel popping is gone, far as I could tell the flat spot was gone (although my test ride was really not targeted at the flat spot), the jerk is diminished, but not eliminated. So I threw on a G2 400 cam. Not much happier with that either, Tahoeacr is right when he called it a band-aid. It just masks the jerkiness but it's still there lurking, waiting to strike at the most inopportune time. But it's clear to me that after comparing the akro and stock maps the solution can be had in the tuning!

I just wanted to thank all those that have made this information possible! Tom, Alain, the others I mentioned above. I went from not knowing Sh*t about EFI to loading a map with a cable I built myself! How cool is that?! And of coarse as I start to move the numbers around on my bike, I will post my results. Thanks again TuneECU, expect a donation!

Oh and another first for me... My first post on this site!
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:28 AM   #1050
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Welcome, as they say, to the asylum...

Power-trip, I'm sorry to be so dense, but I have yet another question about the F-L switch.

What's the functional difference between having the switch set at 0, say, and at 50 (max value)? If you cannot turn off the L maps completely, does setting the switch at 0 just turn it way, way, down in the interpolation, and 50 give it more weight?

Thanks, everyone, for all your help!

Steve
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