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Old 07-11-2011, 10:44 AM   #1051
Power-Tripp
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Lebowski,
There is no ONE fix for all 990s. Each bike is a bit different due to injectors.
The main issue is a fueling and ignition advance issue that the stock calibrator (OEM term for the guy who developed the stock maps) should be flogged with enthusiasm about the head and neck for causing. Yes, it was done to meet emissions regulations, but it should have been calibrated much better than it was.


AlleyCat - This is a big can or worms since I do not know what you already understand about the ECU and sensors.

Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) is difficult to describe clearly without showing you in action - on road/track, or on the dyno. I am told that I have a tendency to assume that people already have a good understanding on some things that I take for granted, but many do not know. As a result, I am not always able to make myself as clear as you may need.

Plus, I do not always want to "smarten up the dumbies" that work in my profession. I do have to keep the lights on. And there are schools where they charge USD $3000-$7000 to learn these things. Or you can spend hours on the dyno or track with data logging, spending your own time and fuel to figure out the details, wearing out your own engines... not fun, but the best way to learn. I still spend a lot of time working with other shops teaching them to map with aftermarket engine management systems, OEM race kit ECUs, or tuning solutions like TuneECU or TuneEdit. But this is very time consuming over the phone, or via forums and emails.

Let's see if I can make myself clear:
If you read the TuneECU guide, it states that the F_L Switch is based on TPS. Yes it is. but not always in the manner many think. And most seem to think they are doing themselves a favor by shutting off the MAP sensor priority at low load and engine speeds. This is incorrect.

The F_L Switch influences when MAP and TPS have more influence - more of an interpolation priority between TPS and MAP. When set low, the TPS has more effect up to a given point. When set high, the MAP sensor (L table) has more influence. But, MAP changes in a way that most seem to have a hard time getting their head around until they see it in action - on the dyno, or while monitoring it on the road.

Let's say we hold a bike on the dyno at a fixed load and engine speed that is the same as cruising at 70 mph. The F_L Switch is set at stock settings. We have the dyno cell set to a constant temp and barometric pressure. Under these conditions, the MAP (L) tables alter fueling much more than the TPS (F) tables. If we then change the switch point lower than the point where it is loaded on the dyno, the F tables alter fueling more. But since the engine still sees a good bit of vacuum, the L tables still have the ability to change fueling - just not as much influence as before.

We are still switching the TPS point where MAP or TPS have control, but MAP still influences the fueling (and ignition advance that is adjustable in some maps, for some models) based on how much vacuum is present.



TPS% is a bare minimum. It does not account for varying conditions. MAP adds more detail under varying conditions. The real world is a varying place. As a result, all the detail we can add helps.

You need to understand that manifold air pressure (MAP) is primarily vacuum on an engine without a turbo or supercharger, and the engine produces more vacuum at low throttle openings or when under acceleration at lower engine speeds. Under these conditions, the map reading is low in hpa, but high in vacuum. This higher vacuum gives you more resolution for fine tuning in these regions and conditions.

A MAP sensor is a sensitive vacuum/pressure sensor. The MAP tables are set up in hectopascals (hpa) over rpm. This is a unit of pressure/vacuum where one bar (14.5 psi atmospheric pressure) equals 1000 hpa. The higher the number, the less vacuum in the intake. At high speeds, there is even a slight ram air effect on some intakes. This raises the number even more. Plenum pulse tuning effects the MAP as well.

1 hpa = -1bar = 14.5 inches of vacuum.
1000 hpa = +1bar = atmospheric pressure at sea level (kind of) under ideal conditions.

MAP changes with many different variables - barometric pressure, load, acceleration, engine speed, altitude, pulse tuning, ram air pressure, and much more. [Have you ever noticed that the MAP sensor looks just like a barometric sensor? It should make more sense as to WHY now.] As the engine revs at a fixed throttle opening (TPS %), MAP is ever-changing - slowly decreasing vacuum as the revs climb, but the hpa values increase as it gets closer to atmospheric pressure. This is what many find hard to understand, and even more difficult to tune correctly. This is not rocket science, but it is not a Power Commander either.

[If you open a copy of the race ECU map for the Daytona 675, you will see that TuneECU and TRACS (Triumph's race software) do not access MAP. Instead, the TPS (F) tables are set for more resolution at low openings - every one percent. This is a bandaid fix for those who cannot map MAP because they use an inertia dyno, and do not understand how or why. The problem then becomes resolution at higher speeds - even more so when atmospheric, altitude, or top speed conditions change.

We can actually produce better results with a stock ECU over a race ECU on the D675. But we map ALL tables completely.]

Does this help more than it confuses?
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Old 07-11-2011, 09:51 PM   #1052
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Wayne,

Yes, it's a big help and deserves a better response than I have time for at the moment, but I just want to say thank you again.

Every time I read a post of yours I look again at your location, hoping that I've mis-remembered that you live across the country. I'd bring you the bike in a heartbeat if you were closer!

It sounds like the triumph map you referenced actually offers us dummies what we're trying to do with the LC8 and TuneEcu...fix what we can understand and then let the ECU mix in the L map as it sees fit.

The suggestion was made earlier in the thread that it would be a reasonable approach to turn down the F-L switch, adjust the F map as you would approach tuning a carb, then return the F-L switch to stock; your explanation seems to support this approach for us seat-of-the-pants tuners. I am not suggesting that this would result in any better or more complete tune than you could provide with the bike "in-hand" but I'm curious about the effect that last step--returning the F-L switch to stock settings--might have on a bike that's seen significant positive improvements by turning that switch off and tuning just the F-map with targeted adjustments; again, like you would approach jetting a carburetor. Your discussion of resolution re: the L maps is compelling.

The neat thing about all this, of course, is that a seat of the pants carb tuner like me can make changes without spending a day tearing into the carbs, and of course it's simple to put it all back--just reload the stock map. Guess I'll have to try turning the L-map back up; it's only an upload, after all...the way I read your explanation, it sounds unlikely that the L map will undo all of the positive changes, and if it does, I cna always set it back.

For me it's about dirveability; better is still better. As I've said before, I am just not excited about making blind changes to something without at least having a theory about why I'm doing it. I can relate throttle position and rpm on the F map but not so much on the L map.

Don't sweat oversimplification; it's the only way I've learned anything...

Thanks!

Steve

PS- Hey! No F-L switch question this time!
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:42 AM   #1053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Power-Tripp View Post
Lebowski,
There is no ONE fix for all 990s. Each bike is a bit different due to injectors...

..

..

..


AlleyCat - This is a big can or worms since I do not know what you already understand about the ECU and sensors.

..

..

info overload

..

..
I wish i lived somewhere near you guys, so i could just bring the bike into your shop and be awed while you work on it.
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:48 AM   #1054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicks View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power-Tripp
Lebowski,
There is no ONE fix for all 990s. Each bike is a bit different due to injectors...


..


AlleyCat - This is a big can or worms since I do not know what you already understand about the ECU and sensors.

..

info overload

..
I wish i lived somewhere near you guys, so i could just bring the bike into your shop and be awed while you work on it.

I guess this is where I have one advantage over most of you guys. I also own a Speed Triple and have been "working" with Wayne for several years now. Not in the literal sense, but through forums, email, PM's, and phone.

And here is what I have learned. TAKE IT SLOW. It is truly information overload if you try to download his brain/knowledge all at once. I am one of those people Wayne mentioned about assuming I knew more than I really did... Yes, I'm very mechanically inclined and do all of my own maintenance on my vehicles. I even have a mechanical engineering degree, not that I used it since I graduated college..... I am, however, not an engine or EFI guy. I know enough to work on my vehicles, but not as a full engine mechanic.

Read each post slowly, then read it again. Then go ahead and read it one more time.

The EFI and mapping stuff was completely foreign to me at first. Now it gives me only a slight headache . It took me some time, but using the information that Wayne provided I was able to clean up my Triumph map. I improved the fueling throughout the entire map, removing hesitations and throttle snatch. I even improved the fuel economy while doing so. I went from 33-35 avg mpg to 42-45 mpg. And with more work, I'm sure I could improve it even more. This took several months of trial and error. Modifying maps, running several tanks of fuel, then modifying them again. In a few cases I had to step backwards.

Anyway, after reading this entire thread several times over. I just wanted to say be persistent and patient. And don't give up on the EFI. I know I have read several posts where some KTM owners are dumping the EFI in favor of carbs. Which i see as a waste. Given some effort, the EFI will work. And it will work better than the carbs.

I'd also like to welcome Wayne, once again, to Advrider. His knowledge and willingness to help will quickly become apparent to all. Now I just need to get my ass to his shop to officially meet him in person and buy him a few beers.

-k
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Old 07-12-2011, 01:35 PM   #1055
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EGT's

Those of you that shut off your SAS, did you have an increase in EGT's? I noticed that when I plugged mine the exhaust gas got quite a bit hotter, so I wonder if the stock map adjusts O2 censers for the increase, and since mine was still enabled in the map but no fresh air was in the exhaust it caused it to run in a lean condition..
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:33 PM   #1056
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Ok.. that is one kick A$$ program!! I just switched my 990 Akropovic to the 990R Akropovic map in like 5 seconds... I also cleared some fault codes (the ones i put there when I forgot to hookup the intake temp sencer while doing TB balance) and checked all the other tests. TPS is at .6 closed 3.78 full at 99%.. my manometer adjusted TB's are within 8% at idle, I adjusted it that way on purpose so it would even out as I increase throttle (yes a manometer is that sensitive..) all in all this program rocks!!

A big thankyou to the Developers!!!
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:36 PM   #1057
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The funny part is I did not know I was using the Akro map... the dealer snuck it in on me... And he did it before I put on the carbon Akros im running now.... He must have ESP or somthing.. he had no way of knowing I would go there...

-H
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:22 AM   #1058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helios View Post
Those of you that shut off your SAS, did you have an increase in EGT's? I noticed that when I plugged mine the exhaust gas got quite a bit hotter, so I wonder if the stock map adjusts O2 censers for the increase, and since mine was still enabled in the map but no fresh air was in the exhaust it caused it to run in a lean condition..
SAS is only used at startup with a cold motor. so your exhaust KAT reaches fast the optimal temp.
It's in the manual.

But in case of a leaking SAS valve, O2 will measure a leaner mixture and the ecu will add some fuel to get it within Lambda 1.
In this case the exhaust should also pop alot during decel.
If then the SAS is removed, then it looks like EGT rises and it does because the O2's measure the "correct" mixture and the ecu won't add extra fuel.
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Old 07-15-2011, 05:47 AM   #1059
bouboule
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Thanks for this helpfull thread!

The stock map is so bad!

After I read that, I better understand how the Ecu works.

But I ever search why the throttle is so sensitive and reactive than a carbs.

Where come from this problem: when you cut the throttle under 3500tr, and you put on a little you have a big crank!

Maybe from L maps but i've try to run perfectly around 14. Not that

The F map only is not better.

Maybe more open the second butterfly, I've actually 4% on this region.

It's not the o2 sensors

I've try to put more ignition advance, it's better but not a miracle!!

Why this problem?!

Maybe the 2 different map between cylinder 1 and 2?

Why 2 ignition map? It's not the same cams?

Why this difference between the front and rear fuel map? It's not for the coolant!!


Thanks for your help!!
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Old 07-15-2011, 06:33 AM   #1060
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The injectors and temps are different between cylinders, are is the pulse tuning. Event the air flow over the header can cause different cylinders to tune to different rpm points.

As a result, different cylinders require different mapping.

On exhaust systems where we can take readings from each cylinder on twins, we prefer to map the cylinders individually.
On triples and fours, we have to add a bung to each header primary pipe for individual cylinder mapping, and the mapping itself takes longer... much longer. For race or performance street use, this makes a noticeable difference.

We use a unit like the one below to help map each cylinder:
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Old 07-15-2011, 06:44 AM   #1061
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Ok thaks for your light!

And for you, where is the principal factor for the on/off throttle problem?

My bike doesn't jerk around 4000 rpm but under this rpm, principally when I run off road, when I cut throttle and when I put on the bike explose!

It's very difficult to run with this...

Appartly, this problem is a little solve on 2009".

What's the difference between this 2 models? Cams? Injectors? Ecu model?


Thanks, very thanks for your help!!!
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:51 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by bouboule View Post
Ok thaks for your light!

And for you, where is the principal factor for the on/off throttle problem?

My bike doesn't jerk around 4000 rpm but under this rpm, principally when I run off road, when I cut throttle and when I put on the bike explose!

It's very difficult to run with this...

Appartly, this problem is a little solve on 2009".

What's the difference between this 2 models? Cams? Injectors? Ecu model?


Thanks, very thanks for your help!!!
The 2009 models have the superduke Cams

But open the 2nd throttle in the low rpm helps a lot, You say it's open 4%?? that isn't very much.
Mine is set round 12% (2800-3500rpm till 5% TPS)
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:23 PM   #1063
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Ok I'll try with this value on this range!

Only cams are different? So if I mount the 09 cams, I can put the 09 map?

I think that tune ecu allow not that, there is a controle when you program the ecu...
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:16 AM   #1064
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Ok I'll try with this value on this range!

Only cams are different? So if I mount the 09 cams, I can put the 09 map?

I think that tune ecu allow not that, there is a controle when you program the ecu...
Yes. But you can copy and paste tables from one map, into another.
This doesn't completely change all details of the map not accessed with TuneECU, but it does address the big ones.

;)

Power-Tripp screwed with this post 07-18-2011 at 07:17 AM Reason: brain cramp
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:42 PM   #1065
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O2

So I have been running the stock mapping with the O2's disabled for several months now - including a trip from SF to Seattle and back. The results are very positive, but as commented above in this thread I have NEVER even come close to 40MPG. In fact on my 2,300 RT trip to Seattle and back I was at best averaging 35.

So, anyway, has anyone tried the AKRO map with the O2 sensors ON? (those that have aftermarket cans like me)

I am thinking, what the heck - can't hurt nothin. When I ran the AKRO map prior, the bike ran great, smelled rich, and got 32 MPG average!! (about 8 months ago I used it for a few tanks then said wow - 32 MPG X $4.79 per gallon = )
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