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Old 12-22-2004, 07:55 PM   #1
BlitzBike OP
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Evans coolant dilemma

As the beta tester for the Evans NPG+ lifetime coolant, I was struck with a dilemma today. Jinking around through traffic and stop lights the high temp. idiot light came on. Not a problem with the evans since it boils at 375F but, at what temps do other engine problems develop? How do I know when the engine is too hot to run when I'm already off the scale?? Seems like 300+ degrees would at least fry the plastic cooling fan if not something more important.
While this is not an issue on my highway comute to work, it will certainly be on hot summer days in traffic because today wasn't even a hot day by florida standards. What do you guys think is the upper limit in terms of running temperatures?? And I'm open to suggestions on how to monitor these higher temps.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:06 PM   #2
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deep question; hi temp ypu run into other problems OTHER than coolant.
Pre detination, oil viscosity thinning damage etc etc etc... If it's to the point it's getting that hot then there are other problems than the coolant.

Coolant, cooling is only one part of what it's for. corosion protectin, cooling system lube and anti freeze are just few that come to mind.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampy
As the beta tester for the Evans NPG+ lifetime coolant, I was struck with a dilemma today. Jinking around through traffic and stop lights the high temp. idiot light came on. Not a problem with the evans since it boils at 375F but, at what temps do other engine problems develop? How do I know when the engine is too hot to run when I'm already off the scale?? Seems like 300+ degrees would at least fry the plastic cooling fan if not something more important.
While this is not an issue on my highway comute to work, it will certainly be on hot summer days in traffic because today wasn't even a hot day by florida standards. What do you guys think is the upper limit in terms of running temperatures?? And I'm open to suggestions on how to monitor these higher temps.
Get the specs on the oil you like to use and find out what the continuious and peak temperature limits are... Like Dag said, oil is your next concern, pinging you can usually hear, oil failure you can't hear until it's too late.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:37 PM   #4
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I'm not sure what bike you are riding...

A credible source claims that you want to keep you oil temp to a max of 300F. One can buy thermometers that replace the oil dipstick.

I use a brand of coolant called Engine Ice. It is a blend of propylene glycol and Water Wetter. It works well in my Hondas, CRF-250X and XR650R. I also use a 1.6 bar radiator cap, and a non-OEM thermostat that has better flow properties than the stock part.
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Old 01-01-2005, 12:23 AM   #5
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Add Water Wetter to your Evans coolant. I use it in that combination and it works great. The Wetter is supposed to aid the thermalconductivity of your radiator to pull heat out of the mixture.
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Old 01-01-2005, 02:09 PM   #6
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Sommer KTM sells an thermometer dipstick that looks real nice and I always wanted one - not a bad price (I hear shipping is a female dog). That would let you check at any time with a quick stop and a gander.

I thought I read that 150 was the normal operating temp; I would want it to be around that just for the sake of being normal. The problem I have with what's happening is why the heck ain't the Evans pulling heat outa da engine? Obviously its gettin stuck in there and not gettin out - maybe the Water Wetter idea is the ticket (check with Evans first).

Beta testing sucks eh? Thanks Swampy!
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Old 01-01-2005, 03:06 PM   #7
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according to a paper I read in RRW&MT not to worry up to break down temp of evans. Without water you have a lower specific heat so it will have to get hotter to get rid of the same energy. Bike coolant systems are made to be able to be run at 15 psi =121C=250f for pure water.
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Old 01-03-2005, 09:25 AM   #8
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Exactly the reason I stay way the hell away from that stuff. Water releases a great deal of energy as it changes phase- ie, boils. So, boiling is a good way to get heat energy out of your motor and keep it at a rational temperature.

I doubt you've ruined anything with a fairly brief trip to extreme temperature. But I'd get that Evans crap out of the system as quickly as possible.
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Old 01-03-2005, 10:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neduro
Exactly the reason I stay way the hell away from that stuff. Water releases a great deal of energy as it changes phase- ie, boils. So, boiling is a good way to get heat energy out of your motor and keep it at a rational temperature.

I doubt you've ruined anything with a fairly brief trip to extreme temperature. But I'd get that Evans crap out of the system as quickly as possible.
Isn't that the reason that water is a poor coolant? I thought that is why we add antifreeze et al to raise the boiling point. Evans claims that when water goes thru the engine it boils (even with the additives) and the air bubbles reduce heat conductance and lead to, oh what was it, hot spots or problems blah blah blah...

Some are looking for cooling that will work better in hotter areas, like Florida. Even in NorCal my bike gets hotter and hotter running stoplight to stoplight thru town (shame the fan don't come on sooner - or have a second fan). I haven't had a problem yet but it would be nice to improve this aspect.

Maybe adding Water Wetter is a good solution, if it really does aid in heat conductance (reducing the specific heat of Evans?). But I don't want my bike running 100 degrees above normal just because Evans says its OK.
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Old 01-03-2005, 10:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
Isn't that the reason that water is a poor coolant? I thought that is why we add antifreeze et al to raise the boiling point.
We add antifreeze to prevent water from freezing and cracking our block. Hence the name.


Quote:
Some are looking for cooling that will work better in hotter areas, like Florida. Even in NorCal my bike gets hotter and hotter running stoplight to stoplight thru town (shame the fan don't come on sooner - or have a second fan). I haven't had a problem yet but it would be nice to improve this aspect.
While adding something that simply won't boil will mean that your bike doesn't make an embarassing cloud of vapor, it doesn't mean that engine temperatures will be kept under control.


Quote:
Maybe adding Water Wetter is a good solution, if it really does aid in heat conductance (reducing the specific heat of Evans?). But I don't want my bike running 100 degrees above normal just because Evans says its OK.
My point exactly. While I'm not sure that water transfers heat ideally, it is what your bike was designed around, and it provides a safety valve so you'll know when it gets too hot.
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Old 01-03-2005, 11:53 AM   #11
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The Evans is supposedly MORE efficient heat transfer, largely because it does remain in a liquid state. A gas -- water vapor -- lacks thermal mass and thus is extremely inefficient as a coolant. "Antifreeze" is a coloquilism, no matter what you put in your cooling system its proper job description is a heat transfer medium. Any additive you install should be intended to prevent corrosion of system components, prevent boiling under all operating conditions and yes it should prevent freezing if such temps are to be encountered. Water Wetter is a common additive to aqueous based cooling systems, it should however NEVER be added to a non-aqueous system like Evans. Contact Redline or Evans, they will BOTH confirm this fact.

The Evans has been claimed to indicate higher coolant temps as indicated by coolant temp guage. This is likely indicative of this cooling mediums greater efficiency at thermal transfer, particularly around combustion chamber jacket. If in fact you do experience higher indicated temps AND your cooling system is operating properly, there is likely no adverse conditions being created by this. The engine is not necessarily running "hotter", the coolant temp is higher. This does not directly translate to higher combustion temps or oil temps. I suspect if you were to have an oil temp guage, it would indicate little if any thermal change. Any modern synthetic oil can operate at temps waaaaay beyond what they encounter in most motorbike applications, especially those in a liquid cooled motor. I would worry much more about seals failing due to excessive temps and/or excessive metal expansion rates which could create stress risers due to high temps but honestly that would involve coolant temps rising to 350F or higher and similar oil temps. I seriously doubt one would ever encounter such temps on a bike with properly functioning oil and cooling systems.

I have very limited personal experience with the Evans, I have always preferred air cooled motorbikes. I now own 2 liquid cooled bikes; a Duc and my KTM. The Duc has used Evans NPG-R coolant for last 5k miles. What rare detonation issues I experienced with this bike using OEM coolant, disappeared after the Evans was installed. That is the only noticable change I have experienced. My temp guage indicates coolant temp to be essentially the same under normal operating conditions. MPG's, power, temps, etc all remain unchanged. Heck the detonation issue was so rare and I installed new plugs at same time so that may also have accounted for this being only noticable gain. Based on this lone experience, I would not say Evans is perhaps better or worse...just seems like coolant to me. I have not installed Evans in my 950 as of yet but will consider it at 12k mile service interval.

FWIW: the NPG-R is lower viscosity than the standard NPG+ which may be beneficial in small volume cooling systems like motorbikes. The NPG-R does not have as extreme of freezing point but that seems less relavant to motorcyclists. Living in temparate Ca, Evans customer support recommended NPG-R for my Duc and I suspect they would recommend same on most any motorbike. take care.
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Old 01-03-2005, 01:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neduro
We add antifreeze to prevent water from freezing and cracking our block. Hence the name.

While adding something that simply won't boil will mean that your bike doesn't make an embarassing cloud of vapor, it doesn't mean that engine temperatures will be kept under control.

My point exactly. While I'm not sure that water transfers heat ideally, it is what your bike was designed around, and it provides a safety valve so you'll know when it gets too hot.
I thought antifreeze lowers the freezing point and raises the boiling point, or is that just the pressure?

yeah, if it doesnt control temp then what's the point? like i said, i don't want something that makes my bike run hotter. But the temp gauge and idiot light should still work regardless of the coolant right?
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Old 01-03-2005, 01:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac
The Evans is supposedly MORE efficient heat transfer, largely because it does remain in a liquid state. A gas -- water vapor -- lacks thermal mass and thus is extremely inefficient as a coolant. "Antifreeze" is a coloquilism, no matter what you put in your cooling system its proper job description is a heat transfer medium. Any additive you install should be intended to prevent corrosion of system components, prevent boiling under all operating conditions and yes it should prevent freezing if such temps are to be encountered. Water Wetter is a common additive to aqueous based cooling systems, it should however NEVER be added to a non-aqueous system like Evans. Contact Redline or Evans, they will BOTH confirm this fact.

The Evans has been claimed to indicate higher coolant temps as indicated by coolant temp guage. This is likely indicative of this cooling mediums greater efficiency at thermal transfer, particularly around combustion chamber jacket. If in fact you do experience higher indicated temps AND your cooling system is operating properly, there is likely no adverse conditions being created by this. The engine is not necessarily running "hotter", the coolant temp is higher. This does not directly translate to higher combustion temps or oil temps. I suspect if you were to have an oil temp guage, it would indicate little if any thermal change. Any modern synthetic oil can operate at temps waaaaay beyond what they encounter in most motorbike applications, especially those in a liquid cooled motor. I would worry much more about seals failing due to excessive temps and/or excessive metal expansion rates which could create stress risers due to high temps but honestly that would involve coolant temps rising to 350F or higher and similar oil temps. I seriously doubt one would ever encounter such temps on a bike with properly functioning oil and cooling systems.

I have very limited personal experience with the Evans, I have always preferred air cooled motorbikes. I now own 2 liquid cooled bikes; a Duc and my KTM. The Duc has used Evans NPG-R coolant for last 5k miles. What rare detonation issues I experienced with this bike using OEM coolant, disappeared after the Evans was installed. That is the only noticable change I have experienced. My temp guage indicates coolant temp to be essentially the same under normal operating conditions. MPG's, power, temps, etc all remain unchanged. Heck the detonation issue was so rare and I installed new plugs at same time so that may also have accounted for this being only noticable gain. Based on this lone experience, I would not say Evans is perhaps better or worse...just seems like coolant to me. I have not installed Evans in my 950 as of yet but will consider it at 12k mile service interval.

FWIW: the NPG-R is lower viscosity than the standard NPG+ which may be beneficial in small volume cooling systems like motorbikes. The NPG-R does not have as extreme of freezing point but that seems less relavant to motorcyclists. Living in temparate Ca, Evans customer support recommended NPG-R for my Duc and I suspect they would recommend same on most any motorbike. take care.
Thanks for that BigMac - good info
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Old 04-27-2005, 10:46 AM   #14
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After reading this post I looked at Evans website to learn more. If you goto their technical pages they list the specific gravities of NPG and water. Water is 1.0 and NPG is .68 , so it is no wonder evans coolant is a higher temp, as it takes much less energy to raise its temperature than water. Water is still one of the best heat transfer liquids around. Just need some coolant for freeze protection and anti corrosion.
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Old 04-27-2005, 11:15 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepboy
After reading this post I looked at Evans website to learn more. If you goto their technical pages they list the specific gravities of NPG and water. Water is 1.0 and NPG is .68 , so it is no wonder evans coolant is a higher temp, as it takes much less energy to raise its temperature than water. Water is still one of the best heat transfer liquids around. Just need some coolant for freeze protection and anti corrosion.
water is best so long as it remains a liquid. as soon as it is boiling (like when it enters the engine) it forms bubbles and heat transfer doesn't happen. you need to add raising the boiling point to your list.

sure water may have better heat transfer properties, that is only until it boils. antifreeze et al (like evans) have higher boiling points (under pressure for the prior/w/out for the latter) so they continue to effeciently transfer heat.

interesting discussion though. if the evans runs hotter then what does this do to the oil temps? swampy (blitzbike?), you running an oil temp gage or dipstick? would be good to know if the oil is staying cooler even though the thermostat shows the bike is hotter
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