ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > Parallel Universe
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-29-2011, 08:46 AM   #76
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,487
I would love to see it too, especially between stock and the add ons, but only to satisfy my curiosity.

If you believe the claims that they each make, that the ecu is reading temps 20 degrees cooler and have a wide range of temps that they work in, I don't think there is any difference at all between them. Why would there be? Any differences would be with individual bikes. The technology is pretty simple and has been in used by tuners for years.
A resister changes the electrical flow to the ecu by a set amount and a thermister, or an added resister, that changes electrical flow based on ambient tempurature "felt" by that resister. One fixes the electrical flow and the other provides the range over which it works.

Mark has done a much better job on his new website explaining how the BMW ecu works and what the add-ons do. It is worth the read. http://www.sol2.be/Performance/ENG/Theory/index.html

What I would love to see is, what are the AF ratio's over a range throttle inputs and load between stock and either module. I think that would explain better some of the low RPM twitchyness the stock bike has.
__________________
BMW Motorrad USA customer service: "We make superior motorcycles and continue to improve them."

itsatdm screwed with this post 06-29-2011 at 10:05 AM
itsatdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 10:03 AM   #77
Gangplank
Advenchaintourer
 
Gangplank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Oddometer: 2,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
What I would love to see is, what are the AF ratio's over a range throttle inputs and load between stock and either module. I think that would explain better some of the low RPM twitchyness the stock bike has.
Exactly... These are one type of a quick-fix solution to fuelling, but without a dyno run to compare to stock what do you reallly know? That it is telling the ECU that it is 20c degrees colder and putting in more fuel. Ok, great but what A/F ratio does that result in at different times?

If it is 12.5-13.3 great (for pump gas "In naturally aspirated engines powered by octane, maximum power is frequently reached at AFRs ranging from 12.5 to 13.3:1"). If not in that range it is running rich (lower no.) or lean (higher no.). Guessing it won't be lean currently is lean since its putting in more fuel for colder temps. Anyway, rich fuelling makes less power (lean makes more power to a point but running too lean (above 13.2) often leads to faster engine failure).

Running rich will have the motor run cooler which is such not a bad thing to a point but it also means there is more fuel than optimal which can be bad (fouls plugs, bad for the cat, extra pollution, worse gas mileage). Running at optimal AFR gets the right burn and can actually get more power at the same gas mileage.

So.... what I am tyring to see a comparison of AFR stock vs. an ACCmodBOOSTERplug thingy. Anyone want to come on up and see?
__________________
Ride more, bark less
Gangplank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 10:16 AM   #78
Gangplank
Advenchaintourer
 
Gangplank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Oddometer: 2,305
To add to that...

Was this thing made to run with a stock exhaust or an after market exhaust?

Why is it different? Well if you compare the PCV maps for a stock bike to one with a LV pipe installed they are VERY different. Why? Because the idea is to make good power by using the right AFR. Not just dump in more fuel all the time.

In places the stock bike will get more or less fuel. In other places the LV pipe'd bike will get more or less fuel.

Sure you can save $$ and get a cheaper fix. What are you really hoping for by doing the mod?
__________________
Ride more, bark less
Gangplank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 11:36 AM   #79
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,487
Wasn't a criticism of your doing a dyno run. I would love to see on paper what my butt dyno is telling me. I have run mine both stock and a Leo Vince. Sounds like we may share some concerns on what these tools are doing with AF ratio's

Two of mine are, what is the ratio on cold starts and what effect on the motor. The ECU is already making adjustments to the bike when starting, so does either overly richen the mixture and does that cause damage. The 2nd is, the cat requires about 650 degrees to work correctly and just how low does the temp get when they operate?. Does it even matter because all is resolved at steady state throttle when the system goes closed loop and all reverts back to 14.7 AF?

As far as the difference between the two. Theoretically if all they do, is lower the resistance to the ECU, tricking it to believe air temp is lower by 20 degrees, what ever or however they do it, will result in the ECU giving the same direction on duration of the fuel squirt. Unless some one is lying of course.

My complaint is not with what you are doing, but with people pulling opinions out of their nether regions and posting up claims and opinions.
I am not saying you haven't, but I think if you do this, at least have a base understanding of how the BMW's system works.

To find out, my opinion is you should find a way to measure AF ratio's while not interfering with the oxygen sensor, because it is a counter measure to both of these mods. It is analyzing gases and will try to return to the program ratio. Measure the heat at the cat. To do this you need to measure some of this data from start through warm up and then again on a hot bike.

Go ahead with whatever your plans are, I have a tendency to over think things some times. Even a dyno run with and without would show something worthwhile. Vernacchi had a dyno run on his old site at one time, dnk why he took it down. I never got to see it.

Happy motoring.
__________________
BMW Motorrad USA customer service: "We make superior motorcycles and continue to improve them."

itsatdm screwed with this post 06-29-2011 at 12:32 PM
itsatdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 12:40 PM   #80
Gangplank
Advenchaintourer
 
Gangplank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Oddometer: 2,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
Wasn't a criticism of your doing a dyno run.
Didn't take it as a criticism at all. I think we are on the same page here you and I. I'm happy to install it if it does what it is intended and supposed to do.

It very well may be that it works great. I'd just like to see the AFR and since I have access to a dyno to do a couple of runs... why not right?


(BTW not planning to argue the point here but 14.7 to 1 is not what I'd recommend for AFR results. 14.7 is for pure octane not for regularly aspirated (non turbo or NOS) gasoline motors. For motors running on pump gas 89 or 91 you want an AFR between 12.5 to 13.2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Fue...atio_.28AFR.29
__________________
Ride more, bark less

Gangplank screwed with this post 06-29-2011 at 12:45 PM
Gangplank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 01:47 PM   #81
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,487
Like it or not I suspect that 14.7 is the golden rule for this bike, because that is the ratio the fuel burns and leaves the least amount of residue. It is a EPA thing. I do agree that is not the ratio that give the most power.

That is the whole purpose of the add ons. Change the ratio to give more power. If you believe Jens at Booster Plug, his 20 degree reduction of air temp. to the ECU results in a 6% change of the AF to 13.6, when the sensors require a boost of power.

This is not a map change. BMW's ECU changes its AF ratio based on conditions that come from the various sensor's located on the bike already. This just modifies the signal of one of those sensors. The oxygen sensor located in the cat will always try to bring the AF back to 14.7 for cleanest exhaust and best fuel economy at steady state throttle.
__________________
BMW Motorrad USA customer service: "We make superior motorcycles and continue to improve them."

itsatdm screwed with this post 06-30-2011 at 05:48 AM
itsatdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 04:13 PM   #82
Gangplank
Advenchaintourer
 
Gangplank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Oddometer: 2,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
Tell you what, I am curious, give me a time and date and I will be there.
You have a PM.
__________________
Ride more, bark less
Gangplank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 06:08 PM   #83
flubbyhog
Gnarly Adventurer
 
flubbyhog's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Utah
Oddometer: 100
My Accelerator Module arrived today after ordering it on the 22nd. It couldn't be easier to put on and it's a much easier to ride starting off, no snatchy throttle and it seems like it's quieter too, doesn't sound like it's thrashing itself internally anymore at idle.
Doesn't run any hotter (from what my calibrated shins tell me) and won't know how it's affected my gas mileage until this weekend.

Of all the 17-18 farkle's I've added, this is by far the most appreciated and welcomed, best 82 bucks I've spent.
__________________
Mmmmm, liquid courage...
flubbyhog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 12:56 PM   #84
Gangplank
Advenchaintourer
 
Gangplank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Oddometer: 2,305
It should run cooler. Engines run hotter when lean and cooler when rich.

RE: 14.7:1 as the ideal. For any regularly aspirated (non turbo/non-NOS boosted) gas powered motor running on 89 or 91 pump gas the best power will be achieved between 12.5:1 and 13.2:1 in terms of air-to-fuel ratio. Anyone who runs thier bike so lean as to achieve 14.7 will burn up the motor eventually.

I'm still trying to figure out how making it 6% richer accross the board is ideal. That is what both of these things do isn't it? Fools the ECU to thik it is 20 degrees celcius colder (roughly 35 degrees Farenheight) and putting in more fuel.

So on a fuelling table like if you were looking at a Power Commander V software fuelling table it would say +6 in every cell. Is that correct?
__________________
Ride more, bark less
Gangplank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 02:31 PM   #85
Gangplank
Advenchaintourer
 
Gangplank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Oddometer: 2,305
Ok, just got a little more info from an inmate. This is starting to make more sense now.

Like many bikes made under the new regs the bike has to run very lean to pass emissions. This would theoretically put it up above 13.3-14. Up that high it will make less than optimum power, run hotter but have lower emissions. If that is the case then the acc-booster-plug-module type fix will do what is says and fool the ECU to add fuel. By doing that it will for sure put in more fuel. As it does that this will bring down the AFR from super lean to reasonably lean and like I said above Leaner is more power (up to a point).

It is actually better for your motor to run closer to the optimum AFRs of 12.5-13.3 or so. If in actuality these devices get it closer to that range then the motor should produce more power & run a little cooler. Yes, it will have a bit more emissions but its a motorcycle. If I wanted to be more green I'd buy a P(r)ius.

... just took me a bit to wrap my brain around the science.
__________________
Ride more, bark less
Gangplank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:00 PM   #86
jscottyk
Gnarly Adventurer
 
jscottyk's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Oddometer: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
...I'm still trying to figure out how making it 6% richer accross the board is ideal. That is what both of these things do isn't it? Fools the ECU to thik it is 20 degrees celcius colder (roughly 35 degrees Farenheight) and putting in more fuel.
Close, but not exactly. Basically the fooling of the ECU only occurs during the times when the throttle position is changing.

Jens (BoosterPlug creator) has a good description here.
jscottyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:05 PM   #87
jscottyk
Gnarly Adventurer
 
jscottyk's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Oddometer: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
...If that is the case then the acc-booster-plug-module type fix will do what is says and fool the ECU to add fuel. By doing that it will for sure put in more fuel. As it does that this will bring down the AFR from super lean to reasonably lean and like I said above Leaner is more power (up to a point).

It is actually better for your motor to run closer to the optimum AFRs of 12.5-13.3 or so. If in actuality these devices get it closer to that range then the motor should produce more power & run a little cooler.
Ding, ding, ding!

And remember, this fuel enrichment is only occurring during times when the throttle is opening or closing.
jscottyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:20 PM   #88
Gangplank
Advenchaintourer
 
Gangplank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Oddometer: 2,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Close, but not exactly. Basically the fooling of the ECU only occurs during the times when the throttle position is changing.

Jens (BoosterPlug creator) has a good description here.

Don't know what you are pointing out there. On that very site it says "So with the BoosterPlug, you will get a 6% richer mixture regardless of the temperature conditions you're riding in."

I got the awnswer from another inmate. Once he told me that the AFR numbers for the factory tune are so lean that it is far above the ideal AFR's it made sense that adding fuel brought the AFR down closer to the ideal. Close is not exact but honestly as a buddy put it today while we were working in his yard... "it's not like your trackbike. You are just trying to get better not perfect."

So 6% accross the board, while not ideal is likely good enough for most riding conditions. Running this plug is the same as running +6 in every cell on a PCV. Now while that is NOT what the PCV does it is going to be better than nothing. So for around $100 you get pretty good. For $350 you get a dynojet map (downloadable from thier site) that gets the most power everywhere.

For a daily driver dual-sport adventure vehicle (DDDSAV = ADV? LOL) I'll save the $250 and buy gas for... oh 2,812.5 miles or so.

(250/4 a gal = 62.5 gal x 45 mpg = 2812.5)
__________________
Ride more, bark less
Gangplank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:39 PM   #89
The Griz
North Forest Rider
 
The Griz's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Minnesota
Oddometer: 3,789
I remember having this discussion/argument quite a while back in another thread (potentially an exhaust thread or the Booster Plug thread) and continually getting grilled by LukasM for stating the facts about AFR and saying exactly what Gangplank and itatdm are saying..... Why isn't Lukas picking a fight with one of you guys yet? Lukas?

Seems there are others that know the facts about AFR and are willing to state them as well. You don't seem to be all over them like white on rice, Lukas. Hmmm.....
__________________
PAUL BUNYAN FOREST RIDERS MC
2013 KTM 300 XC-W
2014 KTM 690 Enduro R
The Griz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:43 PM   #90
Gangplank
Advenchaintourer
 
Gangplank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Oddometer: 2,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz View Post
I remember having this discussion/argument quite a while back and continually getting grilled by LukasM for stating the facts about AFR and saying exactly what Gangplank and itatdm are saying..... Why isn't Lukas picking a fight with one of you guys yet? Lukas?

Seems there are others that know the facts about AFR and are willing to state them as well.
Maybe you convinced him we were right before we were right.
__________________
Ride more, bark less
Gangplank is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014