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Old 11-15-2010, 07:28 PM   #16
EnderTheX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
Well that's just an odd announcement to make about yourself in a thread on a motorcycle forum. Hmmmm...Do you look like the guy kneeling down or something john?
Dude Griz you have got to start taking yourself less seriously

There is a good bit of difference between knowing you are right and humbly suggesting an alternative theory.

Cheers

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Old 11-15-2010, 07:31 PM   #17
The Griz
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Originally Posted by EnderTheX
Dude Griz you have got to start taking yourself less seriously

There is a good bit of difference between knowing you are right and humbly suggesting an alternative theory.

Cheers

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Well, Ender, I know I am right in post #13, so...
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
...is clean filtered air actually injected into the exhaust at any given time? If so, then yes the bike has a secondary air injection system. If not, then no it doesn't. If all gases/fumes for the "secondary" system on the F8 are drawn from the crankcase to the airbox, then it is not technically a "Secondary Air Injection" system. The term and definition cannot be fudged. It either is or isn't a secondary air injection system.
Just had a chance to carefully read Joel's explanation, and as I understand the answer is 'YES' . Clean air is being added to the exhaust. Joel, please correct me if I'm wrong but the the flow is from the solenoid through the hose referenced as #4, then through reed valve, then exhaust path and into the header.

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Old 11-15-2010, 10:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
Sorry, perhaps I have a picture that shows the exits from the one and only rotax twin I've torn down. Will check and post the answer and link to picture if I do.

There you go, likely far more then anyone wanted to know about this system. Sorry for the super long post, I can't help myself. I LOVE this engine and all the super high tech details. Putting iPhone away now and going for a ride
Joel, thanks again for details. I think I'm getting my head wrapped around this. If you could post those pics it would be most helpful. The system is much more complex than I expected and the visual would be great.
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:30 PM   #20
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Let's stay on topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
PS, I don't believe that using the Booster Plug will richen the AFR of this bike so much so that "emissions will go to hell and deposits will build up in the combustion chamber as well as in the exhaust and of course, the O2 sensor will plug."

...Just read all of the posts of the happy costomers who installed the Booster Plug or Accelerator Module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
Again, as I said before, very thorough and complicated post. However, folks, take some his opinion-based statements regarding this bike with a grain of salt, especially what I've quoted above. What I've quoted above is simply false. Runnability and power absolutely CAN be increased with airbox mods, higher flowing air filters, and higher flowing exhaust systems and headers. However, once these changes have been made and items have been bolted on, the owner MUST re-tune the air/fuel mixture to match the change in higher intake and exhaust flow. Otherwise, the engine will run much too lean resulting in hotter running temperatures and reduced power. This may be what Joel is talking about. However, again, in order to reap the benefits of intake and exhaust modifications, you must richen the air/fuel mixture to match. The onboard ECU will do its best to compensate and richen the mix, but unfortunately it cannot richen the mix on its own enough to reap said benefits. Contrary to what Joel says in his post, you CAN gain some power and better 'runnability' with airbox mods, higher flowing air filters, higher flowing air filters, and a higher flowing exhaust. But again, you MUST richen the air/fuel mixture enough in order to match the extreme changes in intake and exhaust flow you've made. Otherwise you're doing more harm than good. The only way to richen it enough is to manually tune the bike with a Booster Plug or Accelerator Module. These items will richen the mix enough to reap the benefits of the add-ons we speak of.
The Griz, I appreciate your enthusiasm but let's keep this post on topic and discussing the SAS. There are plenty of threads discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of the Booster Plug, Accelerator Module, Uni filters and Leo Vince exhaust. Being one that has install basically the same setup you have (BP, Uni filter and LV) it's clear I'm convinced of their benefit. However, I do not have a complete understanding of how the SAS works. I've been asking about crank case breathers, the SAS and the like now for a week or so and Joel is the first person to step forward with any clear explanation. I do not read his post an indictment of any the after market intake and exhaust modifications. The last thing I want is him to stop contributing to this thread because we go off topic.
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Old 11-16-2010, 05:39 AM   #21
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Great informative post Joel

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
Very complicated explanation and didn't feel like reading trough the whole thing.....is clean filtered air actually injected into the exhaust at any given time? If so, then yes the bike has a secondary air injection system. If not, then no it doesn't. If all gases/fumes for the "secondary" system on the F8 are drawn from the crankcase to the airbox, then it is not technically a "Secondary Air Injection" system. The term and definition cannot be fudged. It either is or isn't a secondary air injection system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection

Secondary air injection (commonly known as air injection, or colloquially smog pump) is a vehicle emissions control strategy introduced in 1966, wherein fresh air is injected into the exhaust stream to allow for a fuller combustion of exhaust gases. An implementation of the system has been trademarked by the name Air Injection Reactor (A.I.R.).
You didn't bother to read the post but you'll try and quote a wiki to disprove it? Amazing.
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:19 AM   #22
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Yes, filtered air from the airbox is injected to the exhaust to promote clean burning. In that sense, the F800GS HAS TRADITIONAL SAS :)

What is fairly high tech is that the air injection actually improves volumetric efficiency (good breathing) of the engine.

I couldn't explain in a 50X post all that goes into the volumetric efficiency of this engine because I'm good enough with math to recognize good math, usually, but not nearly good enough with math to explain it.

But as an exercise, think of air and exhaust having mass, which it does, and having compressibility, which it does, and tending to spring back when it compresses from banging into a closed valve, which it does.

Think of the induction, combustion chamber, and exhaust as a city street with red and green lights representing intake and exhaust valves.

Think of the cars having acceleration provided by the pumping of the piston as well as combustion.

Now if you add more lanes, the cars which represent the intake air and exhaust, will get to the red light of the intake valve quicker and come to a stop, at which point they will have to accelerate into the combustion chamber. Air has was and is compressable, acceleration takes time.

These are gross simplifications that I can just wrap my mind around.

When the leingth and size of the induction tract, lift, timing and angle of valves, leingth and restriction of exhaust, restriction of the filter, and IN THIS CASE, vacuum breaking properties of the SAS system are all tuned to work in harmony, it's like a 2 lane road where the lights are always green and moves better then a 4 lane with red lights.

You absolutely can increase peak power at red line through modding of intake, exhaust, filter, or even valve timing, but I believe it will always be at the cost of mid range torque.

If you priorities are peak power, mod away. If not, I don't beleave you can improve much on the factory design.

I'm not apposed to add on parts, we sell them :)

Will post pictures when time presents, but first, I have to take them :)
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:11 AM   #23
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digdesign
Great informative post Joel


You didn't bother to read the post but you'll try and quote a wiki to disprove it? Amazing.
Nah, didn't try to disapprove it. Just didn't have time at the time to read through the whole thing to see if what was saying is in fact actually a secondary air injection system. You're reaching again digdesign.
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk
The Griz, I appreciate your enthusiasm but let's keep this post on topic and discussing the SAS. There are plenty of threads discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of the Booster Plug, Accelerator Module, Uni filters and Leo Vince exhaust. Being one that has install basically the same setup you have (BP, Uni filter and LV) it's clear I'm convinced of their benefit. However, I do not have a complete understanding of how the SAS works. I've been asking about crank case breathers, the SAS and the like now for a week or so and Joel is the first person to step forward with any clear explanation. I do not read his post an indictment of any the after market intake and exhaust modifications. The last thing I want is him to stop contributing to this thread because we go off topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
Yes, filtered air from the airbox is injected to the exhaust to promote clean burning. In that sense, the F800GS HAS TRADITIONAL SAS :)

What is fairly high tech is that the air injection actually improves volumetric efficiency (good breathing) of the engine.

I couldn't explain in a 50X post all that goes into the volumetric efficiency of this engine because I'm good enough with math to recognize good math, usually, but not nearly good enough with math to explain it.

But as an exercise, think of air and exhaust having mass, which it does, and having compressibility, which it does, and tending to spring back when it compresses from banging into a closed valve, which it does.

Think of the induction, combustion chamber, and exhaust as a city street with red and green lights representing intake and exhaust valves.

Think of the cars having acceleration provided by the pumping of the piston as well as combustion.

Now if you add more lanes, the cars which represent the intake air and exhaust, will get to the red light of the intake valve quicker and come to a stop, at which point they will have to accelerate into the combustion chamber. Air has was and is compressable, acceleration takes time.

These are gross simplifications that I can just wrap my mind around.

When the leingth and size of the induction tract, lift, timing and angle of valves, leingth and restriction of exhaust, restriction of the filter, and IN THIS CASE, vacuum breaking properties of the SAS system are all tuned to work in harmony, it's like a 2 lane road where the lights are always green and moves better then a 4 lane with red lights.

You absolutely can increase peak power at red line through modding of intake, exhaust, filter, or even valve timing, but I believe it will always be at the cost of mid range torque.

If you priorities are peak power, mod away. If not, I don't beleave you can improve much on the factory design.

I'm not apposed to add on parts, we sell them :)

Will post pictures when time presents, but first, I have to take them :)
I understand what you are saying and agree fully about the fact that there IS a secondary air injection system on these US F8's. And being a BMW employee, I appreciate your thorough explanation of how the secondary air injection system works on this bike. However, since many folks around here take every word you say as 'the gospel', and you have felt the need in the past to want to shrink me and speak condescendingly towards me, I'm not going to let a false opinion-based statement that you've said go unchecked. Especially since you and the gang have regularly flamed me in the past over and over for speaking opinion. I will correct you when need be if you want to play that game. And I am now.

As technically advanced as this engine may be, with its computer controlled air/fuel mixture and fuel injection, it is still a internal combustion engine, with a piston, intake valves, and exhaust valves. Humans have been improving HP across the RPM (with no 'mid-range reductions') on the internal combustion engines in motorcycles for decades by tuning air/fuel mixture and increasing EASE of intake flow and EASE of exhaust flow. Your above explanation to support your opinion is cool, but unfortunately needs to be corrected. When the intake valve lifts to let air/fuel mixture in, how hard does the downward motion of the piston need to pull in order to suck the appropriate amount of air in? In stock form, more. This is why there is less power in stock form. Because more of the piston's energy is expended to pull the air in through the intake valves. Now, with a higher flowing air filter and/or airbox mod, the air is much more easily drawn into the combustion chamber, with much less resistence. This means that more of the piston's energy can go the propelling the bike instead of pulling in air to operate. The same can be said for the exhaust valves. When they lift/open, how EASY or HARD is it for the exhaust fumes to exit the chamber? With an exhaust that is more restricted (stock), more of the upward motion/energy of the piston is expended on pushing the exhaust gases out of the chamber, instead of going towards the gearbox and drivetrain. With a higher flowing air filter and higher flowing exhaust, air/fuel are let into the combustion chamber more easily once the valves open. And when combusted, are expelled out of the exhaust valves much easier. When the engine's piston(s) don't have to use as much energy to pull in air/fuel mixture and expel exhaust gases, more of that piston's energy can go towards the drivetrain, which is why we see HP improvements across the RPM range when doing these mods, including the midrange. But as I said before, to reap the benefits of a higher flowing intake system and exhaust system, you MUST richen the AFR to match. And on this bike, it's manually through the use of electronics: Booster Plug or Accelerator Module doing it through a plug-and-play fixed 6% enrichment across the board, or a Power Commander allowing to make custom maps and load them on to the ECU which more tweaky.
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:55 AM   #25
jscottyk OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
...before, to reap the benefits of a higher flowing intake system and exhaust system, you MUST richen the AFR to match.
One correction, the goal in the scenario you describe is not to richen the AFR. Rather you must add more Fuel to the increased amount of Air in order to hit your target Ratio. Whatever that may be; 14.7:1 being the stoichiometric mixture.

It's not that these mods that improve flow require a richer AFR just more fuel to go along with the "more air".

Now, there I go joining The Griz off-topic.
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Old 11-16-2010, 08:43 AM   #26
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk
One correction, the goal in the scenario you describe is not to richen the AFR. Rather you must add more Fuel to the increased amount of Air in order to hit your target Ratio. Whatever that may be; 14.7:1 being the stoichiometric mixture.
That's another way to explain it, yes. And that target/best AFR will more than likely be around 13.5-14:1, given the types of fuels we use today and variations in atmospheric conditions.

Easing the flow of air in through the intake valves and into the combustion chamber by the use of airbox mods or a higher flowing air filter will always increase the amount of air that gets into the combustion chamber in comparison to fuel mist by the injectors, which in turn leans out the AFR. Therfore, you need to re-richen the AFR with more fuel mist. Once this has been completed power gains can be realized.

Quote:
It's not that these mods that improve flow require a richer AFR just more fuel to go along with the "more air".
Adding more fuel mist to go along with more air is richening the AFR. Again, what's happening is you are leaning out the AFR considerably (more air/less fuel) by providing more intake and exhaust flow. So in turn you need to richen the AFR (more fuel to match the more air) in order to realize the benefits of higher flowing intake and exhaust systems.
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Old 11-16-2010, 10:45 AM   #27
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Just call me half empty, but I would bet its primary purpose is emissions. Undoubtedly, the f800 has more valve overlap and duration to provide more power than the F650gs, which means more pollutants. Could help with scavenging exhaust and a freer flow, but I doubt that is why it is there. To do that requires the exhaust valve be at least partially open and opening an air valve would kind of like sucking on a straw with a hole in the side. Without seeing flow charts and knowing when the air valve opens it is all a guess. Open when the valve is still open, see straw comment, in fact it would decrease the scavaging from the cylinder, because it is a leak. Opens after the valve closes it would help residual exhaust exit the tail pipe because it decreases the vacuum effect existing exhaust creates.

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Old 11-16-2010, 11:19 AM   #28
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Can't say with certainty what the F800GS has or what it does, but in most cases an air injection into the exhaust or SAS is intended to supply O2 for the catalytic convertor. Depending on the type of catlyst used, it requires O2 to facilitate the catalytic reaction.
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:55 PM   #29
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The Griz, you really, really have a drive to prove you are right, don't you?
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Old 11-16-2010, 01:31 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCMXCIVRS
Can't say with certainty what the F800GS has or what it does, but in most cases an air injection into the exhaust or SAS is intended to supply O2 for the catalytic convertor. Depending on the type of catlyst used, it requires O2 to facilitate the catalytic reaction.
Very good point!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk
The Griz, you really, really have a drive to prove you are right, don't you?
Nah, just want to make sure the correct information gets displayed as much as possible on this forum. This is my sole purpose for being here. It has nothing to with whether I'm the right one or not, rather whether or not correct information is posted.

I'm not worried about my ego or taking care of my large oversized head. There are a lot of folks that know just as much or more about a lot of things motorcycle-related than certain people around here. We can't always look to the same one person for the facts, because there's really no one person who knows them all, myself and you all included. I am humble enough to admit that. I just wish more would be willing to do the same, instead of feeling the need to attack others when they feel threatened that some one else might know something they don't, by claiming that what that person is posting is "opinion" or whatever they can to deflate that person and make them small so that they feel better about themselves and/or maintain their "status" on this forum.

Also, since there's a lot of folks around here that are so very bent on having no opinion-based posts, I've resorted to posting disclaimers when what I'm saying is my opinion versus when what I am saying is scientific fact and truth. I (and hopefully many others) feel this is lame to have to do, but oh well. What ever I need to do in order to not upset and/or threaten certain people.

Just look at post #14 from this thread. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=14. I mean, really? After not being engaged in the thread for an extended period of time you really feel the need to try to make someone feel small because you didn't write the correct response? Because you weren't the guy who solved something or thoroughly answered a question? Unfortunately, this example is all too common around here.

We should all just realize that as humans, individually, any one person doesn't know everything or have all the answers to everything. I know I don't, and am always willing to congratulate someone when they are able to answer something I am not. Historically, I have done so.

It takes a collective of people to come together and work together to make sure we can cover all the bases regarding this bike correctly. Hopefully we can keep things more positive and collective around here, instead of constantly having "The Clash of Egos" saga on a daily basis. That form of negative interaction only slows the process down.

Lastly, I know this post will once again 'offend' or 'threaten' certain folks. We'll probably see a trail of flaming and more childish posts of fat soldiers down on one knee and such. But this needed to be said. Let's try to stay civil and work together instead of playing swords with our streams of piss constantly.

Yours truly,

The Griz
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