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Old 11-16-2010, 03:23 PM   #31
jscottyk OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
It takes a collective of people to come together and work together to make sure we can cover all the bases regarding this bike correctly. Hopefully we can keep things more positive and collective around here, instead of constantly having "The Clash of Egos" saga on a daily basis. That form of negative interaction only slows the process down.
Well said The Griz. Thanks!
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Old 11-17-2010, 02:15 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
Just call me half empty, but I would bet its primary purpose is emissions. Undoubtedly, the f800 has more valve overlap and duration to provide more power than the F650gs, which means more pollutants. Could help with scavenging exhaust and a freer flow, but I doubt that is why it is there. To do that requires the exhaust valve be at least partially open and opening an air valve would kind of like sucking on a straw with a hole in the side. Without seeing flow charts and knowing when the air valve opens it is all a guess. Open when the valve is still open, see straw comment, in fact it would decrease the scavaging from the cylinder, because it is a leak. Opens after the valve closes it would help residual exhaust exit the tail pipe because it decreases the vacuum effect existing exhaust creates.
Gary:

My reading of Joel's explanation indicates that both the (upstream) solenoid AND the reed valve must be open for air to be added to the exhaust. The solenoid makes it a possibility, the reed valve decides the timing. The reed valve will only open when there is a vacuum present in the exhaust system, so I think scavenging is unaffected and the "drag" from the vacuum effect would be reduced or eliminated....?
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Old 11-17-2010, 07:26 PM   #33
Pete O Static
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Griz
I didn't read any of your post because it was too long and I didn't have the time. But in any case, you're wrong!



Sorry man, couldn't resist.
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Old 11-17-2010, 07:49 PM   #34
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Guess he didn't get that memo....
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Old 11-17-2010, 07:51 PM   #35
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I knew you would have a good sense of humor about it.

Cheers
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Old 11-17-2010, 11:31 PM   #36
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(Chuckles to himself and decides it's time to go to bed...)

Bayner screwed with this post 11-17-2010 at 11:45 PM
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:46 AM   #37
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Old 11-19-2010, 01:59 AM   #38
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Joel, thank you for your valuable input here. I love it when 1950s mechanical knowledge is shown to be so hopelessly inappropriate when applied to modern machines.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:43 AM   #39
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynutz
Joel, thank you for your valuable input here. I love it when 1950s mechanical knowledge is shown to be so hopelessly inappropriate when applied to modern machines.
Hey Rusty Nutz, stop rubbing your nutz on rusty things and realize that although most of Joel's explanation, though overly complicated, is correct, one major statement is not:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman
You absolutely can increase peak power at red line through modding of intake, exhaust, filter, or even valve timing, but I believe it will always be at the cost of mid range torque.

If you priorities are peak power, mod away. If not, I don't beleave you can improve much on the factory design. ]

This is why you will NEVER improve HP and runability through airbox mods, filter mods, header mods, or fancy slip ons. You may increase noise, or peak HP, but always at the cost of mid range torque. No aftermarket manufacture has the wads of cash or engineering brain power to design componants that work better then BMW original equipment.

You CAN increase power some by screwing with the fuel mixture but emissions will go to hell and deposits will build up in the combustion chamber as well as in the exhaust and of course, the O2 sensor will plug.
This information is straight up false. If you want to buy into it, go ahead. But I'm not going to let false information by Joel Wisman and crew go unchecked again, especially after him and his crew's hissy fits about me not posting "fact".


And once again, I'll repost the truth about it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
Runnability and power absolutely CAN be increased with airbox mods, higher flowing air filters, and higher flowing exhaust systems and headers. However, once these changes have been made and items have been bolted on, the owner MUST re-tune the air/fuel mixture to match the change in higher intake and exhaust flow. Otherwise, the engine will run much too lean resulting in hotter running temperatures and reduced power. This may be what Joel is talking about. However, again, in order to reap the benefits of intake and exhaust modifications, you must richen the air/fuel mixture to match. The onboard ECU will do its best to compensate and richen the mix, but unfortunately it cannot richen the mix on its own enough to reap said benefits. Contrary to what Joel says in his post, you CAN gain some power and better 'runnability' with airbox mods, higher flowing air filters, higher flowing air filters, and a higher flowing exhaust. But again, you MUST richen the air/fuel mixture enough in order to match the extreme changes in intake and exhaust flow you've made. Otherwise you're doing more harm than good. The only way to richen it enough is to manually tune the bike with a Booster Plug or Accelerator Module. These items will richen the mix enough to reap the benefits of the add-ons we speak of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
As technically advanced as this engine may be, with its computer controlled air/fuel mixture and fuel injection, it is still a internal combustion engine, with a piston, intake valves, and exhaust valves. Humans have been improving HP across the RPM (with no 'mid-range reductions') on the internal combustion engines in motorcycles for decades by tuning air/fuel mixture and increasing EASE of intake flow and EASE of exhaust flow. Your above explanation to support your opinion is cool, but unfortunately needs to be corrected. When the intake valve lifts to let air/fuel mixture in, how hard does the downward motion of the piston need to pull in order to suck the appropriate amount of air in? In stock form, more. This is why there is less power in stock form. Because more of the piston's energy is expended to pull the air in through the intake valves. Now, with a higher flowing air filter and/or airbox mod, the air is much more easily drawn into the combustion chamber, with much less resistence. This means that more of the piston's energy can go the propelling the bike instead of pulling in air to operate. The same can be said for the exhaust valves. When they lift/open, how EASY or HARD is it for the exhaust fumes to exit the chamber? With an exhaust that is more restricted (stock), more of the upward motion/energy of the piston is expended on pushing the exhaust gases out of the chamber, instead of going towards the gearbox and drivetrain. With a higher flowing air filter and higher flowing exhaust, air/fuel are let into the combustion chamber more easily once the valves open. And when combusted, are expelled out of the exhaust valves much easier. When the engine's piston(s) don't have to use as much energy to pull in air/fuel mixture and expel exhaust gases, more of that piston's energy can go towards the drivetrain, which is why we see HP improvements across the RPM range when doing these mods, including the midrange. But as I said before, to reap the benefits of a higher flowing intake system and exhaust system, you MUST richen the AFR to match. And on this bike, it's manually through the use of electronics: Booster Plug or Accelerator Module doing it through a plug-and-play fixed 6% enrichment across the board, or a Power Commander allowing to make custom maps and load them on to the ECU which more tweaky.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:02 PM   #40
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PROOF:

Look at the Accelerator Module and Booster Plug threads. These items would not be selling, and would not be installed and reviewed with such rave results unless they were ACTUALLY working. For many people who are running higher flowing air filters and higher flowing exhausts, keeping the bike in stock form is simply not an option. The bike is already tuned very lean from the factory to meet emissions standards. So when folks are adding a higher flowing air filter and higher flowing exhaust, they are experiencing much worse lean burning symptoms. Surging, jerkiness, etc. The BMW ECU can simply not "learn" or "re-map" far enough on it's own to account for these additions in EASE of flow on intake and outtake . It needs help to be able to richen enough, so that the rider can actually reap the benefits of their expensive easy-flowing exhaust and easy flowing air filter. A Power Commander, Accelerator Module, or Booster Plug will richen the mix FARTHER than what the ECU can "learn" to do on it's own. And they do it far enough to the point where people are actually seeing and feeling the benefits of their expensive air filters and exhausts. The proof is in the result. Therefore Joel's statement that "you will NEVER improve HP and runability through airbox mods, filter mods, header mods, or fancy slip ons" needs correcting, because it is wrong. If you don't want to believe me, then just look at the results in the threads I speak of, and also motorcycle racing history! I mean, it's not like we're talking many many HP gained here, that is obvious. But c'mon guys, it is common knowledge that a few HP CAN be gained ACROSS the RPM range with modifications including flow and AFR tuning. I don't care if freakin' HAL 9000 is the computer controlling your bike and/or if aliens built the effen thing, you can still mod and tune the damn thing. What I'm getting at is that it doesn't matter how complicated the computer control system for the bike is; if some one designs something that ALLOWS alteration or modification to said computer control system (Power Commander, Accelerator Module, Booster Plug), power gains can be realized. Because at the end of the day, what is the computer THAT YOU'VE TAPPED IN TO AND ALTERED controlling? Air, fuel, and spark on an INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE.

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Old 11-19-2010, 12:44 PM   #41
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Wow!

Are we going to have to all pitch in and pay to get you laid?
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:51 PM   #42
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngil
Are we going to have to all pitch in and pay to get you laid?
Not sure my girlfriend would like that, but it's a nice gesture!
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:17 PM   #43
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Resurrecting this thread. As my bike approaches the end of its warranty I'm thinking about a PC-5 with Autotune and full header. While researching, I found a couple of references to plugging the breather vents when using Autotune.

In the last couple of years has anyone decided to remove their Secondary Air System? Either as part of a PC-5 system or as part of simplifying the crank case breathing?

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Old 04-27-2013, 07:29 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Resurrecting this thread. As my bike approaches the end of its warranty I'm thinking about a PC-5 with Autotune and full header. While researching, I found a couple of references to plugging the breather vents when using Autotune.

In the last couple of years has anyone decided to remove their Secondary Air System? Either as part of a PC-5 system or as part of simplifying the crank case breathing?
As we talked earlier, I am of the opinion that the 8 don't have one, but even if it did, imho, it should not be plugged. As far as the crank case breather, for sure that should be left alone, as it does a fine job combusting the fumes generated by the crank slushing around in oil. All engines, including jet engines, has to get rid of those vapors somehow, and sucking them into the airbox, and burning them, is a great idea. That is why you see a little oil in the intake airbox. Would be interesting to hear from someone that has done it. On another note..... That was quite the fog in Austin yesterday morning....ehhhh.....
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:14 AM   #45
jscottyk OP
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
As we talked earlier, I am of the opinion that the 8 don't have one, but even if it did, imho, it should not be plugged. As far as the crank case breather, for sure that should be left alone, as it does a fine job combusting the fumes generated by the crank slushing around in oil. All engines, including jet engines, has to get rid of those vapors somehow, and sucking them into the airbox, and burning them, is a great idea. That is why you see a little oil in the intake airbox. Would be interesting to hear from someone that has done it. On another note..... That was quite the fog in Austin yesterday morning....ehhhh.....
Fog yesterday morning? Out of town on a mini-vaca (Jamaica mon!) and missed it. Strange for this time of year.

For your PC-5 Autotune installation the SAS was left completely un-modified?

Regarding crankcase vapors, I agree if you have them you have to get rid of them. Positive pressures can turn your piston(s) into an oil pump. How that pressures managed can make a huge difference though. And burning those vapors can make its own differences too.

Another approach is to keep them crankcase from developing positive pressure and even run some negative pressure. Check out Krankvent.

I've used their setup on a couple different road-race singles. With both I never pumped a drop of oil from them crankcase and never had weeping head or valve-cover gaskets. *side note - I still wonder if F800 weeping valve-cover gaskets are actually caused by not managing the positive pressure properly*

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