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Old 04-27-2013, 12:34 PM   #46
ebrabaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Fog yesterday morning? Out of town on a mini-vaca (Jamaica mon!) and missed it. Strange for this time of year.

For your PC-5 Autotune installation the SAS was left completely un-modified?

Regarding crankcase vapors, I agree if you have them you have to get rid of them. Positive pressures can turn your piston(s) into an oil pump. How that pressures managed can make a huge difference though. And burning those vapors can make its own differences too.

Another approach is to keep them crankcase from developing positive pressure and even run some negative pressure. Check out Krankvent.

I've used their setup on a couple different road-race singles. With both I never pumped a drop of oil from them crankcase and never had weeping head or valve-cover gaskets. *side note - I still wonder if F800 weeping valve-cover gaskets are actually caused by not managing the positive pressure properly*

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Jamaica man......nice. yeppers.....zero vis for several hrs...with drizzle. I did not mod any sas with the pc-5/at install. Still not convinced my 8gs has it.... from what I understand the original valve cover bolts were just a tad too long....not allowing for propper squeeze of the gasket. Mine quit leaking wih the new kit.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:15 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
... Still not convinced my 8gs has it....
Not convinced or using different terms to describe who Joel discusses in post #22 of this thread. I was under the impression it had pretty much been put to bed that the F800 did have SAS while the little brother F650 twin did not.


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Old 04-27-2013, 10:03 PM   #48
ebrabaek
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Not convinced or using different terms to describe who Joel discusses in post #22 of this thread. I was under the impression it had pretty much been put to bed that the F800 did have SAS while the little brother F650 twin did not.


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Well, I will admit that I don't know the integracies of the 8GS no where near as good as Joel does..... I simply cannot find it. I am quite familiar with a SAS, but merely cant find it on the 8GS. Unless it is injected post the EX valves.....It aint going into the system. So rather than me trying to out smart you folks that really knows it, perhaps someone can show me where it is, and I will promise to shut up......
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:52 AM   #49
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Check out Joel's description in post #9 of this thread. It's long but gives a good descriptions of the air flow.


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Old 04-28-2013, 07:39 AM   #50
ebrabaek
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Check out Joel's description in post #9 of this thread. It's long but gives a good descriptions of the air flow.


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OK I read that, and must agree, that this is the first time I have disagreed with Joel, in any of his statements...... As far as the SAS, I have no clue, but are with you, I would like to disengage it, if I could. How far have you dove in......Perhaps we should wait until you'r done vac'ing, and get back to Austin.....

(PS)... Thanks for being persistent, and not getting upset, as you were clearly right, and I wrong.
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:06 PM   #51
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... Thanks for being persistent, and not getting upset, as you were clearly right, and I wrong.
No worries. I don't have a dog in the right/wrong fight. Just trying to understand the son sophisticated engine controls/emissions controls of this motorcycle and the required engineering compromises made by the factory.

I really like the approach you have taken with the Power Commander V and Autotune along with the Rekluse clutch. While the F800GS will never be a single track bike like a KTM 500EXC or a Husaberg FE570, I think it's low RPM manners can be improved even more than the Boosterplug (which I've already installed), et al., and make it more manageable in the low speed stuff.


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Old 04-28-2013, 04:26 PM   #52
ebrabaek
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
No worries. I don't have a dog in the right/wrong fight. Just trying to understand the son sophisticated engine controls/emissions controls of this motorcycle and the required engineering compromises made by the factory.

I really like the approach you have taken with the Power Commander V and Autotune along with the Rekluse clutch. While the F800GS will never be a single track bike like a KTM 500EXC or a Husaberg FE570, I think it's low RPM manners can be improved even more than the Boosterplug (which I've already installed), et al., and make it more manageable in the low speed stuff.


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Thanks.
The booster plug is a good low cost option, but a band aid..... I meen no offense to HTCA, who makes them. It is a very economical option. But imho, the bigger issue here, is that I was never satisfied with the way the 8GS adjusted to altitude. My engine behavior changed noticable with an altitude change. I thought it did a poor job adjusting, and to this date have yet to find the pressure sensor that does that. It would have been a moot point, if the stock system ran in wideband mode all the time utilizing the O2 sensor, but it does not. Unfortunately the Rekluse is back to them for analysis, and a new secret weapon is going my way in the next few days.
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Old 04-28-2013, 04:58 PM   #53
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There is an atmospheric pressure sensor and you can see its live data using a MOSS but no two ever read the same and bikes side bi side would disagree to a degree that would equal 2000' of altitude. The pressure sensor is a self contained, NOT designed to be replaced or adjustable part of the DME or BMSK as it used to be called or Engine Control Unit (ECU) as everyone else calls it.

Weber and Marelli use this same arrangement with atmospheric pressure mounted to the ECU board but with a nipple exiting the ECU case which you can hook a hose to, to change pressure. With both these brands you can also adjust the baseline reading to correct its accuracy. As far as I know there is no adjustment with the Bosch brains leaving replacement of the brain as the only option :(
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:45 PM   #54
ebrabaek
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There is an atmospheric pressure sensor and you can see its live data using a MOSS but no two ever read the same and bikes side bi side would disagree to a degree that would equal 2000' of altitude. The pressure sensor is a self contained, NOT designed to be replaced or adjustable part of the DME or BMSK as it used to be called or Engine Control Unit (ECU) as everyone else calls it.

Weber and Marelli use this same arrangement with atmospheric pressure mounted to the ECU board but with a nipple exiting the ECU case which you can hook a hose to, to change pressure. With both these brands you can also adjust the baseline reading to correct its accuracy. As far as I know there is no adjustment with the Bosch brains leaving replacement of the brain as the only option :(
Thanks for clarifying this Joel. Internally mounted in the ECU..... I guess if it rolls with a 2000 foot difference, then perhaps that is why I never liked it......
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:28 PM   #55
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Any benefit with "de-smogging" the US version of the 2013 F800GS?

I did it with my KTM and it helped, a lot. No more back firing, more power and less lagging.

Coming down today from altitude (7380' at Echo Summit) to about 2200' (Placerville), even with the booster plug I still had the snatchy throttle and basic "lunges" going on when simply letting off the throttle. Going the other way (up Ebbetts pass on Highway 4) was not a problem. Just the deceleration.

I most certainly wouldn't mind removing the charcoal canister and a secondary air system like we've done my the EXC's, just need someone to help identify what/where the bits are and if it actually is going to help.
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:41 PM   #56
ebrabaek
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Any benefit with "de-smogging" the US version of the 2013 F800GS?

I did it with my KTM and it helped, a lot. No more back firing, more power and less lagging.

Coming down today from altitude (7380' at Echo Summit) to about 2200' (Placerville), even with the booster plug I still had the snatchy throttle and basic "lunges" going on when simply letting off the throttle. Going the other way (up Ebbetts pass on Highway 4) was not a problem. Just the deceleration.

I most certainly wouldn't mind removing the charcoal canister and a secondary air system like we've done my the EXC's, just need someone to help identify what/where the bits are and if it actually is going to help.
The CC (charcoal canister) will not do anything for the snatchy throttle. There are quite the debate on weather to remove it , or not. I removed mine due to fuel slushing in to the cc on steep climbs, and motor running rough, as it was ingested to purge the cc. Since you already have the booster plug, the only thing that I can recommend is the addition of a Dynojet PC-5 with auto tune. There are other lower priced F/I controllers out there, but I have no experience with those. Biggest gain is to be had ( not just talking HP/TQ) is when done in conjunction with an exhaust system. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:52 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
The CC (charcoal canister) will not do anything for the snatchy throttle. There are quite the debate on weather to remove it , or not. I removed mine due to fuel slushing in to the cc on steep climbs, and motor running rough, as it was ingested to purge the cc. Since you already have the booster plug, the only thing that I can recommend is the addition of a Dynojet PC-5 with auto tune. There are other lower priced F/I controllers out there, but I have no experience with those. Biggest gain is to be had ( not just talking HP/TQ) is when done in conjunction with an exhaust system. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely consider it and will concur on one aspect: "...is when done in conjunction with an exhaust system"

I was still getting a bit of sputtering/backfiring until I swapped out the stock exhaust for the FMF Q4.

I've been looking at the Akrapovic (titanium one that has the stenciling, not the sticker) to finish her up.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:41 AM   #58
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Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely consider it and will concur on one aspect: "...is when done in conjunction with an exhaust system"

I was still getting a bit of sputtering/backfiring until I swapped out the stock exhaust for the FMF Q4.

I've been looking at the Akrapovic (titanium one that has the stenciling, not the sticker) to finish her up.
Yeppers......In case you have not seen it.....

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=861778
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:49 PM   #59
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Yeppers......In case you have not seen it.....

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=861778
Ah, thanks for sharing - time to catch up on my reading!
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:29 AM   #60
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There is no diagram of the system I'm aware of on the publically available service DVD, or the dealer only RSD.

There is however a great video complete with animations at BMW university, a web site that's only available to BMW employees. I have no idea why BMW keeps stuff like this secret, but they do.

In any case, YES, at the least the USA variant of the F800GS does have what is commonly known as a "second air" system. The F650GS does NOT.

The system intake is through the right front corner of the air box, so it is filtered air that is injected when the system is operating.

Next up is an on off solenoid valve. This valve is mounted to the right front of the air box. It mounts from the bottom and is clearly visible from the top of the air box. Secondary air would confuse the oxygen sensor were it flowing all the time, so this solenoid valve is switched on by the engine management computer (BMW speak=BMSK) when desirable and off when accurate O2 sensor readings are desired. Some have complained about the click this valve makes, some are louder then others, I've never seen this valve fail, the BMSK has trouble codes to communicate if this valve is stuck open, stuck closed, or unhooked.

Next down the line is a reed valve. This valve is bolted to the valve cover. In essence it is a light weight high speed one way valve. This valve blocks the channel where second air is injected into the exhaust. One side of this reed valve has fresh filtered air at atmospheric pressure any time the second air solenoid is open. The other side has exhaust pressure. Exhaust pressure is not constant. Right as the cylinder exhaust valve opens, pressure goes up and exhaust accelerates through the exhaust system. Exhaust has mass, as the last of the exhaust leaves the cylinder, exhaust with mass is still flowing at high speed through the exhaust pipes. Since the cylinder is empty and exhaust valve closing, there is no longer any inlet to support continued flow and the exhaust begins slowing. The mass of the exhaust that was flowing forms a partial vacuum as it decelerates. This vacuum opens the reed valve and draws in secondary air. This action along with tuned air box, tuned header and exhaust, and secondary air inlet not only reduces emissions by adding more oxygen to promote afterburning, it improves volumetric efficiency and therefore horse power. This is why you will NEVER improve HP and runability through airbox mods, filter mods, header mods, or fancy slip ons. You may increase noise, or peak HP, but always at the cost of mid range torque. No aftermarket manufacture has the wads of cash or engineering brain power to design componants that work better then BMW original equipment.

NOTES: The factory optional Acropovic pipe was engineered by BMW and will improve HP extremely slightly while reducing weight and creating a pleasing exhaust note that drooled out most of the clicks and rattles from the noisy creaky 603 engine.

You CAN increase power some by screwing with the fuel mixture but emissions will go to hell and deposits will build up in the combustion chamber as well as in the exhaust and of course, the O2 sensor will plug.

END OF INFOMERCIAL, RESUMPTION OF SECOND AIR DESCRIPTION.

From the reed valve, the path of the second air circuit is through a channel in the valve cover into a channel in the head. For this purpose, there is a stand alone gasket between the valve cover and head. This gasket is entirely internal. If this gasket leakes, 2 things can happen. 1: exhaust pressure can enter the internal engine and raise crankcase pressure, likely leading to oil leaks. 2: oil can enter the second air circuit creating exhaust smoke and deposits in your exhaust system. For these reasons, this internal gasket should be replaced every time the valve cover is removed! Want to know if your dealer is adhering to this BMW reccomendation? Ask them if they stock this gasket the next time your in for a valve adjustment check. If they don't, I would politely decline to have your service completed untill they do stock this gasket. (note to self, check that my dealer does stock the second air gasket. Just kidding, we do :)
I believe not replacing the second air gasket is one of several reasons F800's develop more oil leaks then the F650's do, and the valve cover gasket is the weak point where the pressure creates oil leakage. Just as common the valve cover is warped, but in either case, using a whole tube of rtv to glue down the valve cover is not the answer ( insert video of bones saying "my god man! drilling holes in his head is not the answer, the artery must be patched" (startrek 4))

Last in the system are chanels in the head they exit right above one or both cylinder exhaust valves. I say "one or both" because I simply can't remember if there's just one or two channels. Sorry, perhaps I have a picture that shows the exits from the one and only rotax twin I've torn down. Will check and post the answer and link to picture if I do.

There you go, likely far more then anyone wanted to know about this system. Sorry for the super long post, I can't help myself. I LOVE this engine and all the super high tech details. Putting iPhone away now and going for a ride
Hey Joel,
I'm new to the F800GS and its Secondary Air System. This is a great explanation very clear and helpful. Thanks for putting the effort into it.

I had a couple thoughts while I read it:

1) I've been running with Lambda shifted to 0.94 to 0.96 on my R1150RT for a year and a half. As far as I can tell, that's not rich enough to add any significant level of exhaust or cylinder Carbon buildup, from my examinations of the plugs, O2 sensors and cylinder head I don't see any yet.

Last night out of idle curiousity, I programmed Lambda to 0.9 to see if I could find a place with too much added fuel. I might have reached that point although 0.92 created a bit more power and smoothness, 0.9 didn't seem to.

2) From experience with the Motronic and BMS-K ECUs, it would seem the likely time to Open the valve is during times when the BMS-K has commanded Open Loop (so that the Closed Loop routine doesn't get wrong answers) and has an enrichment routine running (e.g. you're accelerating or above 50/60 degrees throttle). The injected air will help the catalytic converter to oxidize the excess fuel at the richer AFR.

Thanks again,
RB
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