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Old 11-09-2011, 04:11 PM   #1726
Farnsrocket
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Originally Posted by Plane Dr View Post
No problem, but you suck till I get mine.

Quit bugging poolside! I want him in the dungeon inhaling solder fumes not answering posts. Typically Customers beat up Marketing for Production issues don't they.

Where is Marketing? Come on take your
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:14 PM   #1727
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:32 PM   #1728
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What you notice? Well, now we have marketing at its best. The only way to actually tell what is going on is to put the bike on a dyno and test the air-fuel ratio and HP produced throughout the rev range using each. Also vs. stock but we know stock is tuned to lean.

Without empirical testing its just opinion. It may feel better but whether it is actually producing more HP and doing so at the correct or best AFR you will never know.
I hear what you're saying. The thing is, what you and others are describing as "feel better" is horsepower. All those places where you move the throttle, and the motor feels better than it did before, that's horsepower making you feel good.

The places where the motor used to feel soft when you cracked the throttle, and now it feels crisp, that's horsepower filling in the gap. Anybody can feel those changes by the seat of their pants.

Ok, but what about that dyno empirical testing? I have to guess that what people mean is an Eddy Current dyno. From an engineering perspective it would be difficult to imagine a test setup less representative, or less empirical, than the results gleaned from an Eddy Current dyno. But people like those fixed-point dyno maps, and they love the power curve printouts, no question about it.

The thing you mentioned, "...[horsepower] produced throughout the rev range..." is the domain of the eddy current dyno. Very popular for those with short attention spans. No offense meant, just a plain and serious observation.

There are dynos and then there are dynos. And it might be that mine and some of you fellas idea of a dyno are two different things. For example, it isn't possible to emulate and measure the result of throttle transitions, on level ground or sloped ground, using an eddy current dyno. And motorcycling, like life, is all about transitions.

I have 4-dimensional data, with vehicle acceleration/deceleration curves, mapped against throttle position curves, mapped against fuel injector pulsewidth curves, mapped against the fourth dimensions (in this case the rate of change) of the differential of throttle movement and the differential of the fuel injector pulsewidth.

Then a repeat of that data acquisition, with changes to the Intake Air Temperature input. Is that a lot of data to collect for a simple Intake Air Temperature offset device? I don't know. There's people with short attention spans, and then there's me.



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Old 11-09-2011, 06:07 PM   #1729
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I'm curious of the people who have had positive results. My question is, did any of you already have a similar device, such as The Accelerator module, that you were using prior to installing and using poolside's device? The reason I ask is because I already use the accelerator module and my bike runs well. I purchased the ICE Air just to be able to use the ICE Cool. My bike really needs a longer, don't know the real words, injector dwell at tip in...If we were talking carburetors I need a larger accelerator pump shot.

Since my bike feels good now, I was thinking of not installing the ICE Air until the Cool version is available. But if the general consensus is the ICE Air improves performance over competitive produces then I better get this gizmo installed.
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Originally Posted by grpweld View Post

I've run the accelerator & now have the airz, & the airz is significantly better.

I don't know exactly why because they both are doing the same thing when set @20* offset. I was in the first batch, have lots more bugs in my teeth miles than ever before. I am not affiliated ( other than subscribing to this thread so I can be first to get the COOL!
As others have said, the IICE Air can be expected to perform equally, provided the components are equal. The thing is, after looking at all the advertising and product descriptions from the competitive products, it isn't entirely clear to me how they operate. It isn't that I don't understand the concept of an Intake Air Temperature offset. It's that the descriptions of what the products are, and explanations of how they operate, seem confusing to me.

Mind you, this from a guy who takes 5 paragraphs to explain tiny details. So you can take the above comment with a grain of salt. :-)

After all is said and done, the competitive products can be expected to perform equally as well as the IICE Air. Equal that is, as long as the circuit layout and components are equal. And I do not know that they are. Though I'm certainly not going to argue when people say the IICE Air is better.



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Old 11-10-2011, 01:00 AM   #1730
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Originally Posted by Gangplank View Post
Ya know, I forgot that the BMW has a system that runs in both open and closed loop at different times. So yes a straight up dyno run for HP is not effective and would not show what these different widgets are doing.

Um, it's not just BMW but ANY/EVERY fuel injection system runs in both open and closed loop mode. It is the way fuel injection systems function as an electronic/computerized system. From the very earliest systems to the most modern EFI in use today.

That said a dyno run can be performed different ways. A good dyno tuner does not just do a straight 100% open throttle pull, but in is a series of runs at less than 100% throttle. Now that I think about it you are correct that it won't tell you much on this system because of the open and closed loop operation and since the ECU temp foolng only happens when it is working at variable throttle tip.

Yes a dyno can be used in incremental runs to derive a more complete picture of the power and torque and AFR curves if you have the time and money and the proper dyno. And then you must have the ability to strip out only the applicable data from the all multiple runs that apply to the dynamics of throttle and rpm that apply when the device under test is active, to then be able to compare the 3 different states of operation (IICE Air - stock - device of your choice). And that assumes that the running conditions are directly comparable (the same engine temp, rpms, throttle opening start and stop positions, to name but a few) so that you are able to directly compare the results. And that is a tall order to be able to accomplish, especially since these tests will take considerable time to accomplish and the environmental conditions (like air temp) will change over the course of the day.

Anyway, you can do any number of things using a dyno and smoothig throttle response is one of them. What am saying is that IF these widgets are both doing a straight temp offset then any differences have to do with other variables. Asking what they "feel" is just opinion and in reality a comparison of two 20 degree offset widgets on a different series of days.

As has been pointed out electronic fuel injection systems operate according to specific inputs under certain operating conditions. Poolside went into much more detail on this earlier in this thread. In short it is a computer that runs mathematical algorithms based upon the sensor inputs. If you change an input value, the algorithm will with mathematical precision change the results which use that sensor input. As for the feel, granted you can't quantify the change in response but that does not negate that there IS a change in response. If you doubt this then I'd suggest you read the responses already listed in this thread. And yes again the changes that each rider notices is their opinion, just as it is your opinion that it requires a dyno to tell the difference. And until you or anyone can provide the specific data that correlates to the specific operating conditions under which these devices operate that is all we will ever have, an opinion. And it must be noted that some opinions carry much more weight than others. Some folks have much more experience dealing with the design and operation of ALL of the aspects that are involved with fuel injection systems. And each person can evaluate the accuracy and veracity of the opinion given by any one individual.

If you put both on a dyno and can track the AFR you will see what each is doing at different times. If there is a difference it will show.. that's all I was saying.
Again if you can track the AFR and the rpm and the throttle position and ALL of the other operating conditions between 3 different running conditions (IICE Air - stock - device of your choice) so that a direct comparison can be accurately made, then you have some results that will truly demonstrate 'all you were saying'.

I invite you to make the effort.

JJ
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:47 AM   #1731
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I really can't complain too much,I did'nt purchase mine until 7/19/11.Thats only 1234 months...hey wait a minute...lets string em up!
Just kiddin Poolside,U just stay down there and keep workin.We unworthy ones will just have to exp. the joys of your electrical wonder thru others for now
Better not be 7/19/11 I was 6/29/11 and I'm still waiting.

Go with 7/19/10 and you won't get lynched for favouritism.....
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Old 11-10-2011, 05:23 AM   #1732
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Better not be 7/19/11 I was 6/29/11 and I'm still waiting.

Go with 7/19/10 and you won't get lynched for favouritism.....
Maybe he likes the way I type
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Old 11-10-2011, 06:55 AM   #1733
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I believe it was because to sell internationally the device has to be "RoHS" compliant, which it is not.

RoHS basically means it doesn't have lead solder and stuff like that...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restric...nces_Directive

At least I think that was the reason...
Ummm - according to the Wiki article - and knowing I have had one cup of coffee so far - it seem it is a very narrow scope of items and wouldn't cover an item like this. If the law does cover it, it seems that they are breaking California law by offering it for sale period - shipping to Canada has nothing to do with it!
North America

California has passed SB 20: Electronic Waste Recycling Act of 2003, or EWRA. This law prohibits the sale of electronic devices after January 1, 2007, that are prohibited from being sold under the EU RoHS directive, but across a much narrower scope that includes LCDs, CRTs, and the like and only covers the four heavy metals restricted by RoHS.

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Old 11-10-2011, 07:33 AM   #1734
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Things are heating up in here. No
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:06 PM   #1735
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I have 4-dimensional data, ...
What, so you're saying I can use this device on my TARDIS, too?
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Old 11-10-2011, 05:08 PM   #1736
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Ummm - according to the Wiki article - and knowing I have had one cup of coffee so far - it seem it is a very narrow scope of items and wouldn't cover an item like this. If the law does cover it, it seems that they are breaking California law by offering it for sale period - shipping to Canada has nothing to do with it!
North America

California has passed SB 20: Electronic Waste Recycling Act of 2003, or EWRA. This law prohibits the sale of electronic devices after January 1, 2007, that are prohibited from being sold under the EU RoHS directive, but across a much narrower scope that includes LCDs, CRTs, and the like and only covers the four heavy metals restricted by RoHS.

Half asleep you bring a Wikipedia article to the table?

Seriously though, were good. SB 20 covers user displays, monitors, and televisions.

Now if you can find a way to insinuate the IICE Air into the European Union (EU) RoHS requirements under the Test Equipment classification, I'll send you one free.



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Old 11-10-2011, 05:21 PM   #1737
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Things are heating up in here. No?
I know. They sure livened up Marketing!



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Old 11-10-2011, 05:27 PM   #1738
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I have a question that I know has been asked before (because I managed to read ~50 of the posts) but for which I have not seen an answer.

As I understand the settings:

-10 is really cold.
-20 is normal
-30 is really hot.

You guys are engineers, so maybe you can understand that while my thermometer comes with degrees F and C, it does not have the subjective scale you guys are using. Right now in Fairbanks, 'really cold' means something different than in Long Beach, where it has been really cold for the last couple of days. Could you offer some more specific guidelines, such as temperature ranges? I realize that the ranges may overlap, but they would still be useful as a guide.

Also, if the 4th position is neutral, does this correspond to a 'really, really cold' setting? And what would that be on my thermometer?

I plan to use this doo hickey on a '09 GS in Mexico over the holidays and expect to see temperatures ranging from the high 20's to the high 90's F. I have the on board computer and was hoping to use that as guide to the setting. Many apologies if this has been covered in one of the links on the 1st page. I believe I read them all but could not find this answer.

Thank you!
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Old 11-10-2011, 05:55 PM   #1739
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I have a question that I know has been asked before (because I managed to read ~50 of the posts) but for which I have not seen an answer.

As I understand the settings:

-10 is really cold.
-20 is normal
-30 is really hot.

You guys are engineers, so maybe you can understand that while my thermometer comes with degrees F and C, it does not have the subjective scale you guys are using.
Hold on BW, let me ask Marketing, they're in control of all things subjective.


I think the temperature chart in the quote is backwards isn't it JJ?


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Old 11-10-2011, 06:00 PM   #1740
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Hold on BW, let me ask Marketing, they're in control of all things subjective.


I think the temperature chart in the quote is backwards isn't it JJ?

Duh! Yes the terms 'hot' and 'cold' are reversed in my post!
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