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Old 12-25-2010, 10:26 AM   #271
mattbarn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
I see what you're asking now, and those are good questions. You're right, the Motronic uses a removable EPROM chip. As you probably know there are several vendors of EPROM chips for the Motronic.
Yes, and you're about to slander them at the end of your post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
What I can say is, the temperature offsets produce as much power and drivability improvements as is possible with fueling changes.
And spark angle changes? Which sensor do you tweak for more spark advance at idle? At WOT?

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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Technical information, propellerhead alert.

The Motronic processor.
The Motronic uses a licensed Intel processor, more than likely an 8051 derivative. The chip itself is made by various manufacturers, Infineon, Siemens, etc.

The 8051 core can support both internal and external program memory. Program memory is often referred to as 'firmware', and represents the 'instructions' the processor follows. Now, the external EPROM may contain only simple fuel map data, but the chances are good the external EPROM also contains program instructions.


Changing the program on the EPROM chip.
The only sensible way to change the Motronic program is to have possession of the original Source Code, and use the ECU Software Development Kit (SDK) from Bosch. That is, if it's still available for the legacy Motronic ECUs.

What if you couldn't do the sensible thing, and didn't have the Source Code, or the Development Kit? Luckily, programmers and guys wanting to modify their bikes are not always sensible. Count me in that group.

Without the original Source Code, to make changes to the program memory requires that the binary data on the chip be 'decompiled'. That means to revert the binary data on the chip back into an 'approximation' of the original cryptic text instructions written by the people who wrote the program. Rendering the decompiled code into an understandable form is an intensive process, and one that rarely succeeds.

But, let's say they get lucky. The code is decompiled, and the team labels enough variables to allow at least partial understanding of the subroutines and the program flow. They now must make changes to the code and test the results.

To have a realistic chance of making changes to the decompiled ECU code requires on-chip JTAG or BDM debugging access. This allows the software engineer to watch the code while it's being executed.
I am the guy that does the stuff you're talking about. I make my living reverse engineering the software inside Motronic boxes and all sorts of other stuff. So, yes... it can be done.

The only sensible way to tune the Motronic is to figure out how it works, figure out how to change it, and then tune your changes on a real bike on a real dyno with real data equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
What about these aftermarket Motronic EPROMs? Did the people who made them do all of the above?
In all likelihood, all the aftermarket EPROM chips are identical. It seems likely that everyone using a copy of the same EPROM.


Where did they get the 'original' copy of the EPROM data?
Direct from BMW! The EPROM chip was available as a factory part. I'd say the aftermarket chips are either copies of the 'retuned' EPROM available as a factory part in Europe, or they are copies of the factory-prepared EPROMs used in the 1100S Boxer Cup race series bikes. The series ran between 1999 and 2004.
Oh man, this is just sad. And obviously bullshit. (Can I say that on here?)

http://www.rhinewest.com/ltperf.htm

I suppose they are running LTs on R1100S Boxer Cup software? Or maybe they got the software from the K1200LT Bricker Cup model?

Don't be so naive. There are plenty of people who are very capable of figuring out how the Motronic ECU stores its data and modifying said data for performance gain, even without "decompiling" the code. (Lets call it disassembly, because that's what we actually do out here in the industry.)

Disclaimer: I am not associated with Rhinewest, I don't even think they know who I am. They were just a convenient example.


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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
That's a bold conclusion, Jim. How do you justify it?
If the EPROM contains program memory, and if someone had decompiled the code, then it would be on the interwebs.

Also, if anyone had done that, it would be serious bragging rights. The pressure to claim those bragging rights would be uncontainable. In addition, if the vendors had used these processes, they would have proudly spoken about it on their websites. (It could be that after reading this their website content may change.)

The most compelling thing is, since the modified EPROM was available from BMW, it is highly unlikely the vendors are doing anything more complicated than making copies of the BMW Boxer Cup EPROM.
Nope. People have done it. Done it regularly, for things much more complicated than bike Motronics, and done it since the 1980s. I do it every day.

The vendors that have used these processes have the good sense to keep quiet about it because it means less competition. The contractors that they hire to do these processes () keep quiet because it means job security.

So, if you think that you've cracked some sort of ridiculous BMW bike conspiracy and you're going to set everything right with a couple of pots connected to some motronic sensors, you're nuts.

The fact is, if you're smart enough to know how your changes will effect EVERYTHING that the ECU does, you're smart enough to go in and make the changes in the chip where its easy.

Edit: I probably come across as a dick in this post, which sucks but probably reflects reality. Consider this an invitation to PM me and talk about ECU hacking. Merry Christmas, if that's your thing.
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Old 12-25-2010, 10:34 AM   #272
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Interesting thread. Keep it coming.
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Old 12-25-2010, 12:28 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by mattbarn View Post
Edit: I probably come across as a dick in this post, which sucks but probably reflects reality.
Sir,
I don't think you come across as dick.

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Old 12-25-2010, 12:39 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbarn View Post
Nope. People have done it. Done it regularly, for things much more complicated than bike Motronics, and done it since the 1980s. I do it every day.

[...]

Edit: I probably come across as a dick in this post, which sucks but probably reflects reality.
Perhaps a bit arrogant, but not a dick. A certain amount of arrogance goes with the territory.

I'm one of those guys that did this kind of thing back in the 80's, got the court injunctions to prove it. I think my biggest was a network box with 64K of code. Took me the better part of a month; the end result was the afore-mentioned injunction, plus a $big contract from the OEM to fix some bugs in the code. They reasoned that if I could figure it out the hard way, I could certainly also fix the bugs in it, which I did. Disassembly of large amounts of code is non-trivial to do, but certainly far from impossible.

Sorry for the hi-jack, but it's perhaps a bit relevant. I'm still very interested in the "pots connected to the motronic sensors".
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Old 12-25-2010, 03:45 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbarn View Post
And spark angle changes? Which sensor do you tweak for more spark advance at idle? At WOT?

Are you not aware that the temperature inputs change the spark advance?

A modified chip was available for the K motor as well.



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Old 12-25-2010, 04:26 PM   #276
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just wanted to express my thanks to Poolside and JohnJen for explaining a lot of whats going on with our fuel injection systems.I suspect that a lot of the time you chaps are having to over simplify things so that those of us with no grasp of the concepts involved can get a basic idea of whats going on,I feel that because of the audiences general ignorance of the subject its necessary to take a lowest common denominator approach.For the last few days I have been trawling through the entire archive reading anything FI related(about 50% done now!),time and time again the same 2 names occur.Well done gentlemen,over a period of years you have helped a lot of people in a logical and concise manner.Cheers Chris
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Old 12-25-2010, 05:08 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post

Are you not aware that the temperature inputs change the spark advance?

A modified chip was available for the K motor as well.


I am aware that pretty much everything changes pretty much everything. I also know how to get into the code and get the specifics.

The various changes you can make with modified inputs are not predictable unless you know the maps and how they work. Thus, if you have that sort of understanding you may as well do your tuning with a chip.

Hell you may as well use a PC, atleast they hijack outputs so that you know what the actual result will be.
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Old 12-25-2010, 05:37 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by mattbarn View Post

I am aware that pretty much everything changes pretty much everything.

The various changes you can make with modified inputs are not predictable unless you know the maps and how they work.

I think you pretty much need changing.

The maps are based on combusting gasoline and operating the catalyst afterburner with the combustion products. Few processes are more well-known than that.

The maps are the least relevant to leading throttle and transient throttle response.

Leading throttle and transient throttle are based on air density and motor temperature respectively.

You want to reprogram the chip to do that, I'll see you at the finish line.


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Old 12-25-2010, 06:19 PM   #279
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Quote:
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The maps are the least relevant to leading throttle and transient throttle response.
Are you saying there is no map I can modify to increase or decrease throttle pump enrichment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Leading throttle and transient throttle are based on air density and motor temperature respectively.
Sure, but they're based on tables. That we can get in and modify.

Keep in mind, the ECU did not spring forth from some engineer's brain ready to run every bike ever, no matter how well understood combustion is. It takes tuning for every specific application. So, there is a framework within every ECU (including production ones) to support modifications to the tune. This includes transient fueling, spark and everything else.
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Old 12-25-2010, 07:47 PM   #280
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Poolside,

Did you say that your products would work on the parallel twins? Like the 800GS? If so I look forward to trying your product.
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Old 12-25-2010, 07:56 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbarn View Post

Are you saying there is no map I can modify to increase or decrease throttle pump enrichment?

So, there is a framework within every ECU (including production ones) to support modifications to the tune. This includes transient fueling, spark and everything else.

Sure, but they're based on tables. That we can get in and modify.

Maps are primarily for steady state and catalyst operation, and merely keep the motor running between periods of leading throttle and transient throttle.

Leading throttle and transient throttle are dynamic events. The immediate (edit: i.e., current combustion cycle) mixture and enrichment quantities are based on the user inputs during the foregoing (edit: i.e., several previous) combustion cycles, and are calculated with equations that use temperature as a primary input.

I got it though, you think it's tables.



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Poolside screwed with this post 12-26-2010 at 07:01 PM Reason: Clarity
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Old 12-25-2010, 10:42 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by scooteraug02 View Post
Isn't someone supposed to chime in with:

"Don't you think the BMW engineers know more about this bike than anyone else and built it with the latest greatest..."
That thought crossed my mind while I was reading the first post...
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Old 12-25-2010, 10:57 PM   #283
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 Well, they built it to meet US and EU emissions specifications. We can be sure of that much.


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Poolside screwed with this post 12-26-2010 at 02:59 PM
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:11 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbarn View Post
Are you saying there is no map I can modify to increase or decrease throttle pump enrichment?


Sure, but they're based on tables. That we can get in and modify.

Keep in mind, the ECU did not spring forth from some engineer's brain ready to run every bike ever, no matter how well understood combustion is. It takes tuning for every specific application. So, there is a framework within every ECU (including production ones) to support modifications to the tune. This includes transient fueling, spark and everything else.
Exactly.

The Harley community is well advanced in the modification of the ECM tables both with factory and aftermarket tuners. Just google harley ecm tuning and read for weeks.
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:14 AM   #285
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Poolside,

Did you say that your products would work on the parallel twins? Like the 800GS? If so I look forward to trying your product.
Yes.

In fact all of the bikes that are listed in the links Poolside showed in post #265 will work as well.

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