Hotrodding the GS - Page 195

mouthfulloflake · 06-06-2012, 06:01 PM

I wondered the same thing about where you mount it, but after looking at the build process, they are so potted, that unless you put it in a freezer, or a hot oven , it wont see ambient temp quickly enough to make a difference, right?

how about this... will the ICe air thingy react differently if its been in my freezer for a few hours?

johnjen · 06-06-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallowa

PS and JJ,

What is the best WAG when the Cool and the Smooth will be offered? Even a year will do. I know, I know this question has been a bane of your existence for months if not years.. But after a few Bowmores I gotta ask!

Marketing ALWAYS has an answer. Of course you'd expect that it would…

YES! INDEED!!

In the mean time I will ride the shit out of my bike and enjoy every second...life is good.

You guys have got to get up here to NE Oregon and shed the tendrils...as we say up here, you are welcome at our campfire.. it may not be heaven but you can see it from here...

Now where is my glass....................................Bothy Band calls.

For me it would be 'down' as in south and for Poolside it would be 'up' as in north.

Thanks for the invite.

JJ

johnjen · 06-06-2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake

I wondered the same thing about where you mount it, but after looking at the build process, they are so potted, that unless you put it in a freezer, or a hot oven , it wont see ambient temp quickly enough to make a difference, right?

how about this... will the ICe air thingy react differently if its been in my freezer for a few hours?

Why would you want to put it in the freezer?

And perchance if you actually did so, the potted assembly (being colder than ambient) would influence the thermistors until it all warmed up to ambient.

But the thermistors (being above the mass of the potting compound) react to ambient air temps VERY fast, just like the stock temp sensor does.

JJ

mouthfulloflake · 06-06-2012, 06:57 PM

I would put in the freezer to try and see if it made a difference in the way the bike ran. ( since it has not done so in ambient temps)

hmmm, above the mass of the potting compound... ok.

I have some new ideas when I get my gizmo back

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjen

Why would you want to put it in the freezer?

And perchance if you actually did so, the potted assembly (being colder than ambient) would influence the thermistors until it all warmed up to ambient.

But the thermistors (being above the mass of the potting compound) react to ambient air temps VERY fast, just like the stock temp sensor does.

JJ

Wallowa · 06-06-2012, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjen

For me it would be 'down' as in south and for Poolside it would be 'up' as in north.

Thanks for the invite.

JJ

Guys..we have a complete spare room...get your butts up here! Off road is umlimited and pavement [Aghhhhhrrr] is awesome...offer is alway open...!

KCDakar · 06-06-2012, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrysingfeenix

is KCDakar a guy or a gal?

People ask me this all the time...

Poolside · 06-08-2012, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake

hmmm, [the thermistors are] above the mass of the potting compound... ok.

Yes. They respond very quickly to temperature changes.
You can breathe on them and the temp change will register.

Poolside · 06-08-2012, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake

I have some new ideas when I get my gizmo back

Regarding getting your IICE Air back, I have this idea and I want to see if it's ok with you.

For those of you who don't know, Mouthfulloflake was having some issues with his bike. And to eliminate the possible influence of a defective product I got it back from him to test it out.

Here's what I found. The Air tests out just fine, and is working properly. There is a slight trace of dielectric grease on the electrical contacts. I remember someone mentioning that they applied some dielectric grease to the contacts, I don't remember if that was you. Either way, I did not observe any effect from the slight residual contamination.

The dielectric grease is green in color and I initially thought it was copper oxide on the electrical contacts. There is very little on there. Looking at it under high magnification showed it was a grease compound of some sort. I rubbed a tiny speck of a sample between my fingers and it feels like a silicone not petroleum based product. Like I said though, The Air passed the tests, and works right on the bike.

So here's what I want to try. I would like to send your IICE Air up to JJ for another bike test input, and he'll forward it to you. What do you think, would that be ok? I would send it out tomorrow to Seattle.

mouthfulloflake · 06-08-2012, 06:34 AM

That is fine with me PS, just give me an idea on the time frame.

It wasnt me that put anything on those connectors BTW.

I bought the bike used a few years ago, lord only knows what it went through before that.

you mentioned at one time my bike possibly having an aftermarket eprom in the morotronic box.

would I still have lean surge issues with the rose colored plug in that scenario?

also, you asked me to unplug the IAT and run it and see what happens, I have yet to do that, but I will certainly try that if it wont harm anything else on the bike?

Roll-sen · 06-08-2012, 08:14 AM

You might try removing the rose cat plug completely. I got drastically different results from the IICE Air (for the better) when used without the Steptoe jumper.

mouthfulloflake · 06-08-2012, 08:18 AM

I did.

Its too rich, blubbery off idle response, and sooty tail pipe with no coding in place.

rose plug, lean surge.
no plug, overly rich.

step toe jumper, best compromise I have found.

those were all tested with, and without the IICE air, no difference was noticed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roll-sen

You might try removing the rose cat plug completely. I got drastically different results from the IICE Air (for the better) when used without the Steptoe jumper.

Poolside · 06-09-2012, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake

That is fine with me PS, just give me an idea on the time frame.
JJ should receive your IICE Air by Tuesday the 12th. He will plug it in on his bike right away and forward it to you.
You should receive it between Friday 15th and Monday the 18th.

It wasnt me that put anything on those connectors BTW.
I bought the bike used a few years ago, lord only knows what it went through before that.
I understand.

You mentioned at one time my bike possibly having an aftermarket EPROM in the [Motronic ECU].
Would I still have lean surge issues with the rose colored plug in that scenario?
Too lean and too rich feel very similar. I hope you understand that we can't reasonably get into a long-distance diagnosis of your bike.

Also, you asked me to unplug the IAT and run it and see what happens, I have yet to do that, but I will certainly try that if it wont harm anything else on the bike?

It would be the next thing to try, and operating without an IAT will not hurt anything. Try operating with and without the IAT plugged in. Use all of the various code plug configurations you normally use.

Poolside · 06-09-2012, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake

Its too rich, blubbery off idle response, and sooty tail pipe with no coding in place.

rose plug, lean surge.
no plug, overly rich.

step toe jumper, best compromise I have found.

Given all the symptoms you reported, and that your IICE Air tested good over here, it does seem possible that an aftermarket EPROM is installed inside the Motronic ECU on your bike.

Here are a few Cat Code Plug configurations for aftermarket EPROMS.

This is the BBPower coding chart for an 1100.

This is possibly the BBPower chart for an 1150.

Another aftermarket EPROM chip. Manufacturer unknown.

roger 04 rt · 06-11-2012, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poolside

Hey there TM. The IICE Air richens the mixture by 6% during Open-loop operation.

For Open-loop operation that is the expected result from lowering the Intake Air Temperature input to the ECU. As you can imagine, the fuel/air ratio is a mass ratio calculation, and the temperature and pressure of the air is used to calculate the mass of the air.

For Closed-loop operation, the ECU still relies on air temperature and pressure, but 'adjusts' its mass ratio calculations based on feedback from the O2 sensor. This 'feedback adjustment' eventually negates the 6% enrichment during Closed-loop operation.

Thinking about the differences between Open-loop and Closed-loop for a minute might lead a person to think that disconnecting the O2 sensor would be the way to go. You know. The imagined solution is to eliminate the O2 sensor feedback and the ECU will not know what to do. The idea is it will switch over to to a rich 'limp home' mode. Which sounds great except that isn't the way it works.

The ECU has the primary task of creating the proper exhaust constituents to properly operate the catalyst. That is its primary task, not the secondary task, the primary task. To support that objective the ECU is programmed to create the right exhaust constituents with or without O2 sensor feedback. The ECU does a much better job of that with the O2 sensor feedback than without. Running the ECU without an O2 sensor input makes Closed-loop drivability worse long term.

I wondered what happens no-O2, with and without an IAT shifting device. My 1150 runs E10 fuel here in MA so the no-O2/no-BP curve is shifted up 4% above 14.7. The histogram shows the Motronic varying the mixture in both cases.

On an 1150, the Iice air would create a curve like the lower one when set in the 20C position, O2 sensor disconnected, and running E10 fuel. Several bikes that I've tried this on have run much better and not surged. All were stock exhaust, TB balanced, valves adjusted.

I would agree that no-O2 does not create a "rich, limp home mode" on the 1150. Multiple data sets that I have taken confirm this.

The dotted lines on the charts are at 14.7:1 and 13.8:1 in both pictures.

Boxerwrench · 06-11-2012, 01:12 PM

I take it by the no response to my question above the IICE Cool isn't ready yet?

06-06-2012, 06:01 PM	#2911
mouthfulloflake Not afraid Joined: Aug 2008 Location: N.W. Arkansas Oddometer: 11,221	I wondered the same thing about where you mount it, but after looking at the build process, they are so potted, that unless you put it in a freezer, or a hot oven , it wont see ambient temp quickly enough to make a difference, right? how about this... will the ICe air thingy react differently if its been in my freezer for a few hours? __________________ "A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation." - H. H. Munro (Saki) (1870-1916)

06-08-2012, 06:34 AM	#2919
mouthfulloflake Not afraid Joined: Aug 2008 Location: N.W. Arkansas Oddometer: 11,221	That is fine with me PS, just give me an idea on the time frame. It wasnt me that put anything on those connectors BTW. I bought the bike used a few years ago, lord only knows what it went through before that. you mentioned at one time my bike possibly having an aftermarket eprom in the morotronic box. would I still have lean surge issues with the rose colored plug in that scenario? also, you asked me to unplug the IAT and run it and see what happens, I have yet to do that, but I will certainly try that if it wont harm anything else on the bike? __________________ "A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation." - H. H. Munro (Saki) (1870-1916)

06-11-2012, 01:12 PM	#2925
Boxerwrench Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Jan 2011 Location: Daytona Beach area, Florida Oddometer: 106	I take it by the no response to my question above the IICE Cool isn't ready yet? __________________ 2000 R1100RT, Opel blue 2006 Zuki C50 w/ modified C90 drive.

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06-08-2012, 08:14 AM	#2920
Roll-sen Eh...whatever. Joined: Feb 2009 Location: Salt Lake City area Oddometer: 103	You might try removing the rose cat plug completely. I got drastically different results from the IICE Air (for the better) when used without the Steptoe jumper.