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Old 07-27-2012, 03:45 AM   #3016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post

The few seconds of [motor] 'rattling' while first getting underway has not changed...

It rattled in OEM trim, and with the Booster Plug, and [with the] IICE Air

Life is good and I am certain I will find the best combo.
I'm sure you will.

But since the motor "rattled" before you made any modifications, I would encourage you to sort out the "rattling", first. For example, the sound you're hearing might not be pinging. What you call "rattling" might be a normal combustion sound, though a sound you are unfamiliar with.


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Old 07-27-2012, 03:51 AM   #3017
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A couple of updates:

Pre-order update

Update for International ADV Riders


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Old 07-27-2012, 08:12 AM   #3018
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Thanks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
I'm sure you will.

But since the motor "rattled" before you made any modifications, I would encourage you to sort out the "rattling", first. For example, the sound you're hearing might not be pinging. What you call "rattling" might be a normal combustion sound, though a sound you are unfamiliar with.





Thanks PM...true this is my first boxer motor, but over the years with a vast variety of motors and vehicles and uses, pre-ignition rattle is unmistakable to me...


I really hope this 'rattle' under initial load or when lugged is just a "normal boxer sound"...but I greatly doubt it. If any old salt with lots of BMW boxer experience can chime in it would be great. Don't want to chase something that is inherit in the motor design and non-destructive.


Sorting out pre-ignition on such a 'fly by wire' system as my GSA is not simply possible for me. Spark advance [w/load and temp] is usually the core of the issue, but this bike adjusts that parameter without me. Fuel quality and stiochiometry I do have control over and hence the BP and IICE Air. I run what we have as premium fuel and even have tried non-ethanol fuels with additives without luck.


Anyway thanks for input. It is not just an issue of getting stranded with a busted motor, but I truely hate to abuse motors.
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:44 PM   #3019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
Thanks PM...true this is my first boxer motor, but over the years with a vast variety of motors and vehicles and uses, pre-ignition rattle is unmistakable to me...


I really hope this 'rattle' under initial load or when lugged is just a "normal boxer sound"...but I greatly doubt it. If any old salt with lots of BMW boxer experience can chime in it would be great. Don't want to chase something that is inherit in the motor design and non-destructive.


Sorting out pre-ignition on such a 'fly by wire' system as my GSA is not simply if possible for me. Spark advance [w/load and temp] is usually the core of the issue, but this bike adjusts that parameter without me. Fuel quality and stiochiometry I do have control over and hence the BP and IICE Air. I run what we have as premium fuel and even have tried non-ethanol fuels with additives without luck.


Anyway thanks for input. It is not just an issue of getting stranded with a busted motor, but I truely hate to abuse motors.
You do know that you can manually reduce the overall ignition timing, right?

The timing plate can be rotated to retard the engine's timing on a gross scale. If you haven't tried this perhaps it's worth a shot.

JJ
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:45 PM   #3020
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Hi fellas. How about we don't get into a motor tuning, troubleshooting, and adjustment discussion. Maybe start another thread on GSpot about "rattling" and pinging, Phil? I know how much JJ loves to get into tweaking and adjustments. Thanks you two.


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Old 07-27-2012, 05:48 PM   #3021
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Of Course

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Hi fellas. How about we don't get into a motor tuning, troubleshooting, and adjustment discussion. Maybe start another thread on GSpot about "rattling" and pinging, Phil? I know how much JJ loves to get into tweaking and adjustments. Thanks you two.


Sorry, did not mean to distract...no mas.
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:55 PM   #3022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post

Sorry, did not mean to distract...no mas.
Aww jeez! Now that I re-read my reply it looks like I came down a little hard. Sorry, for that. I don't mean it that way.

It's just really really hard to troubleshoot by remote control, you know? I often try, and sometimes it goes in a circle. Some of my frustration is coming through.

Here's something about the "rattling" sound you describe hearing when "under initial load or when lugged". It is easily possible that the sound you're talking about could be a lower and fuller sound than pinging. And if so, that sound might be either a normal low-RPM, high-throttle angle, and high-VE combustion sound. Or, user-induced detonation.

In the possible case of the latter, here's something to understand about user-induced events. If it is user-induced, and I'm not saying it is, then managing the event is for the most part outside of the command and control structure of the 1100/1150/1200 ECU. On those motors, the user has complete Throttle Authority, and can do good or not-so-good things with it. Some actions can hurt the motor, and the ECU has limited ability to intervene.

Conversely, with a throttle-by-wire system the ECU has the Throttle Authority. That type of control allows the ECU to prevent many types of 'undesirable' results, by ignoring or modifying user inputs under certain conditions.

Take the example of pinging vs detonation on the 1100/1150/1200 motor. The rider can successfully induce pinging on the 1100/1150, but is less able to do it on the 1200 because the ECU has knock sensors and has some ability to control pinging.

Detonation is different. In simplest terms it is less related to ignition timing, and more related to low-RPM, high-throttle angle, and high-VE operation. And in the case of a user-controlled throttle, the ECU next to no ability to control it.

But the noise in question might also be a normal combustion sound for those conditions. This is where the difficult-to-diagnose-by-remote-control part comes in.

Now mind you, I am not saying the noise you're hearing is one thing or the other. Ok? These comments are general EFI technical info.


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Old 07-27-2012, 10:02 PM   #3023
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Thanks!

Actually, none of that I knew and it is appreciated....more for the grist mill!
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Old 07-31-2012, 08:21 PM   #3024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestar2112 View Post

10,000 mile update. It has been over 10K since I got my unit installed. '07R1200GS Red (the fast color). Temperature extremes have been 45 to 110F, altitude from sea level to just shy of 10K feet, humidity from single digits to 100% (rain). I am a happy camper. No issues over the entire range of operating conditions. I have not changed settings the entire time (-20). The bike seems happy. Locally I get 40 MPG, on the trail I have been as high as 52 MPG, (I was able to do that several times, so I know it wasn't just a short fill on the tank).

PS, if I ever meet you, I'll buy the beer.

JJ, if we ever meet, you can buy the beer. That what marketing guys are for...to say yes!
Thanks for the long-term news, Lonestar.


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Old 08-01-2012, 06:14 AM   #3025
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Any news on IICE Cool or IICE Smooth?
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Old 08-04-2012, 05:55 AM   #3026
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Ride report for K Bike K1200

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark883 View Post

Just want to say, I was one of the very early purchasers of this device about a year ago. It was quickly and easily installed on my 1100GS, and it worked great. I also ordered an extra for my '06 K1200GT, that I put off installing until last night. I must warn any slant 4 owner this is not a pleasant install. At least on the GT, it involves removing all the tupperware except the nose / headlight plastic. You then either remove the fuel tank (which can damage the typical cheezy BMW quicktach gas line fitting) or lift it up enough to squeeze little hands in there and remove the airbox sensor plug, then plug in the ICE.

However, best I can determine, this effort is WELL worth the return. I believe the drivability of the GT is MUCH improved. The throttle used to be very 'snatchy' and it was very difficult to get a smooth shift, particularly when rolling back on the throttle. I can't believe how much smoother this bike now runs. No hesitation when getting back on the throttle. Just smooth power delivery. Believe it or not, maybe I'm smoking something, but my GT is now a much easier bike to shift smoothly.
I appreciate the report, Mark. Though the effort is worth it, I wish it was a little easier to install on the K bikes. Are you running the IICE Air on the -20C setting?

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Old 08-05-2012, 08:57 AM   #3027
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Questions reposted by request of Jim Tulenko.


I have a 2012 R1200R. I'm assuming the IICE Air provides some benefit to the '11 and '12 models as it richens up the mixture but do you expct the IICE Cool and Smooth to improve driveability in the newer models. I believe I read the newer cam heads have revised sensors and/or mapping that help smooth cruising and transitional throttle when compared to older models. I have NO technical expertise in this area so I am merely parroting what I believe I have read. I am considering purchasing the IICE Air just to get the benefits of the IICE Cool and Smooth at a later date. I already have a Accelerator Module so will skip the whole thing if you think think no additional benefit can be had on recent models by using the Cool and Smooth. Please provide a detailed answer if possible.
I've always felt fuel injection problems were killing the joy factor of newer bikes when compared to a well-tuned carburetor. It's the elephant in the room and very few people discuss it outside of the threads on this board and others. If your 3 devices can effectively simulate a perfectly-tuned carb (is this even possible in the real world?), I will be ecstatic.
I like to compare carbs and fuel injection to digital vs analog music. In theory, analog music sounds better and indeed much of the very highest end musical equipment is still analog. but in practice, digital is more convenient and usable.
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:39 AM   #3028
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That's a great set of questions Barry. Please excuse that I've edited your post into several parts. Your questions aren't in the same order, but I believe they are faithful to your original intent while being easier to understand and answer.

Also, there's a good amount of technical information about how modern EFI systems are designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badbs101 View Post

I have a 2012 R1200R. I already have an Accelerator Module, and I'm assuming the IICE Air also provides some benefit to the '11 and '12 models as it also richens up the mixture.
That's correct. The IICE Air absolutely improves the running of the new models. You know this is true because the 'Accelerator Module' improved the running of your R1200 camhead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by badbs101 View Post

Do you expect the IICE Cool and Smooth to also improve drivability in the newer models?

I realize the IICE Air will work on the newer models because it addresses lean running but my question is about the forthcoming ICE Cool and Smooth. Will these products benefit the newer R1200's (camheads) or have the problems these devices solve been addressed by BMW software/hardware updates?

I am considering purchasing the IICE Air just to get the benefits of the IICE Cool and Smooth at a later date. I already have a Accelerator Module so will skip the whole thing if you think think no additional benefit can be had on recent models by using the Cool and Smooth.
Should you look forward to putting an IICE Cool and IICE Smooth on your bike? The simple answer is yes. The IICE Cool and IICE Smooth improve Transient Fueling and Closed-loop operation respectively.

As you have already experienced on your bike, IICE Air type products improve Open Loop enrichment. That's one piece of the triad. The other twp pieces are the IICE Cool and Transient Fueling, and IICE Smooth and Closed Loop operation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by badbs101 View Post

I believe I read the newer cam heads have revised sensors and/or EFI mapping that help smooth cruising and transitional throttle when compared to older models. I have NO technical expertise in this area so I am merely parroting what I believe I have read.

Please provide a detailed answer if possible.
I hope the EFI information in this post provides enough detail.

Regardless what a vehicle company may try, the end result must be a low-emission version of Transient Fueling and and Closed Loop operation. What does the 'low-emissions version' mean? It means a fueling profile that can pass the EPA clean emissions test. A nearly impossible task because Transient Fueling is the 'dirtiest' part, and Closed Loop is the most stringent part of the fueling profile.

But in the end the manufacturer can get there. All they need to do is sacrifice power output and soften up the throttle response to achieve their low emissions goals. That may sound defeatist, but in reality it's the practical truth of modern EFI design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by badbs101 View Post

I've always felt fuel injection problems were killing the joy factor of newer bikes when compared to a well-tuned carburetor. It's the elephant in the room and very few people discuss it outside of the threads on this board and others. If your 3 devices can effectively simulate a perfectly-tuned carb (is this even possible in the real world?), I will be ecstatic.

I like to compare carbs and fuel injection to digital vs analog music. In theory, analog music sounds better and indeed much of the very highest end musical equipment is still analog. but in practice, digital is more convenient and usable.
Can we dispel some myths about EFI verses carburetors? On its worst day, EFI is still better than carburetors.

If the fueling system is not designed for low emissions output, then EFI solidly trumps carburetors in every category. It's no contest.

Conversely, when fueling is designed for low emissions, both EFI and carbs do an equally poor job with power and drivability. This is where we're at right now with most EFI bikes.

An EFI system can be tuned for fairly good driveability and low emissions. Power will be down compared to a non-emissions EFI system. But a well-designed emissions EFI system will always drive better than an emissions carburetor.

By well-designed I mean that the manufacturer spent the time and money to iron out many of the driveability wrinkles in their emissions-focused EFI system. That is no easy task on any bike motor, especially one with Independent Throttle Bodies like on the R motor.

Because of the power-to-weight ratio of a motorcycle, good drivability is nearly impossible to accomplish without using a servo-controlled throttle-by-wire system. Nearly impossible, but it's possible to get close.

How close? The manufacturer gets close to good drivability and low emissions by sacrificing power and throttle response. Which means the motor will produce a soft, emissions-level power output and throttle response, while still maintaining pretty good drivability.

But here's the thing. In order to meet the emissions standards, the ECU cannot get close to producing best power, best refinement, and best throttle response. The most that can be achieved is the muted power and response of an emissions motor. But if enough design money and time are spent, it will at least be a smooth muted response.

It is an unfortunate reality that since the objective is low emissions, you can't have one without the other. Low emissions are joined at the hip say with the dull motor response of the low emissions fueling profile.

If the manufacturer makes good compromises when designing the ECU, ideally the end result is the softened up response of an emissions motor. But with fewer obvious defects in the power output so the rider won't notice the overall lack of response.


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Old 08-07-2012, 04:40 AM   #3029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessitori View Post

Wow, wow, wow! Took a few minutes to install and went for a ride!
Now I cannot stop grinning!
Love the way the bike pulls and pulls and pulls all the way to red line!
Puts a smile on my face as well! Thanks for posting up your report Tessitori.
Is that for the F650GS twin?


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Old 08-07-2012, 05:37 AM   #3030
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PS,
In your answers to Barry you mentioned, again, Cool and Smooth. I have an IIce Air that i bought from another Inmate (I've run the tests, it drops the temp as you say) but am waiting until Smmoth and Cool. Give us an idea, what's the timing?
RB
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