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Old 12-06-2012, 08:53 AM   #3196
joenuclear
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
It's all good, Joe. He was just getting my attention. And rightfully so.


Mike's a great guy.... I was just poking him.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:11 PM   #3197
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I had the GS out for a hot run in the rain today. ICEE Aire is still shining bright.

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Old 12-15-2012, 08:32 PM   #3198
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Hey there Mikko.

All three products are still in the works. I'm sorry to insert the doubt as to which will be built first, the Cool or the Smooth. JJ and I discussed the topic more than a few times.

What happens is we'll hit upon some design aspect to make one or the other function better, or be easier to install, or some other good reason to change the order of which product goes first. For example, one of us will come up with something that is so good that it must be considered. Then we have to think about out how to implement it, or whether it's possible to achieve and still keep it an easy-to-install type of device. That's mostly how our development process goes.

snip
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:34 PM   #3199
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And since it's running in a regenerative loop, it should last forever…

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
I had the GS out for a hot run in the rain today. ICEE Aire is still shining bright.

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Old 12-16-2012, 01:51 PM   #3200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
I had the GS out for a hot run in the rain today. ICEE Aire is still shining bright.

...and my wife says I have a wierd sense of humor
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:15 AM   #3201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen View Post

And since it's running in a regenerative loop, it should last forever…
  



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Old 12-20-2012, 04:27 PM   #3202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
I described the Air's overall effect like getting a tuneup. Everything is just a little crisper, transitions, as in changing the rpm's of the engine using the throttle, are more precise with less lag and more closely resemble an electric motor.
JJ

Yup. Exactly what I experienced on my first ride with the Air today. Smooth with quick response to throttle. Very nice guys
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:35 PM   #3203
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I'm looking forward to trying mine this Spring. Ordered in July and got it today (5 1/2 months from order to door) Hopefully the Ice Cool and Smooth will take less time to build.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:08 PM   #3204
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Originally Posted by badbs101 View Post

I'm looking forward to trying mine this Spring. Ordered in July and got it today (5 1/2 months from order to door) Hopefully the Ice Cool and Smooth will take less time to build.
I'm sure you'll like it once you dig out into Spring. Either way yes, the wait on your batch will to be hard to beat! Not that I'm trying or anything.

Happy Holidays folks!



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Old 12-21-2012, 09:30 PM   #3205
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

--My fuel pressure increase is to improve atomization at the injectors . . .
Here's some information relating to fuel injector atomization and fuel pressure, and how they relate to fuel vaporization.

Atomization doesn't much change the fuel vaporization rate within the atmosphere of the intake tract. But the increased fuel pressure likely creates a somewhat larger spray pattern, and that would make a difference.

The sequence of events goes sort of like this. Fuel leaves the injector, flies through the air, and lands on the intake port wall where it begins to vaporize. That waiting-to-vaporize fuel is often referred to as 'port wall fuel'. That 'puddle' of fuel if you will, covers some amount of surface area on the intake port wall. The vaporization rate of the 'port wall fuel' is primarily based on the surface temperature of the wall.

After spraying from the injector nozzle, some of the sprayed fuel vaporizes due to the low pressure of the intake manifold. The low pressure vaporization rate is based on manifold pressure and is not significantly dependent on fuel droplet size (aka atomization.)

The remaining bulk of the sprayed fuel vaporizes after coming into contact with the warm inside walls of the throttle body and intake port. That particular vaporization rate is based on a few things. Manifold pressure continues to be a minor factor in fuel vaporization rate, but there are three other larger factors. 1. The temperature of the inside walls of the throttle body and intake port. 2. The the total area of the injector spray pattern. 3. The velocity of the intake air across the 'port wall fuel puddle'.



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Poolside screwed with this post 12-21-2012 at 10:01 PM Reason: Clarity
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:52 PM   #3206
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Originally Posted by def View Post

I would surmise that manifold pressure plays more than a minor factor. Fuel RVP is a critical factor in fuel quality and combustibility.
Here's some more info on fuel vaporization.

The thing is, in the intake tract, gasoline turns to vapor primarily via two processes. In one process the liquid gasoline is heated and turns to vapor from being in direct contact with the intake port wall. In the other process the liquid gasoline vaporizes due to the low pressure of the intake port during the intake stroke.

There are some reasons why 'heat vaporization' plays a more significant role than 'low pressure vaporization' in vaporizing the liquid gasoline.

1. 'Heat vaporization' happens during the entire 720° of the combustion cycle. That is to say, liquid gasoline vaporizes during the whole time it's in contact with the intake port wall. I mean, once all the liquid gasoline 'boils off into a vapor' the heat vaporization process is complete of course. But as long as liquid gasoline is present on the intake port wall the process happens continuously.

2. 'Heat vaporization' is permanent. Meaning that the heat-vaporized fuel doesn't re-condense to a liquid at some point further along in the 720° combustion cycle.

3. 'Low pressure vaporization' is semi-permanent say, and primarily for the two reasons described in item 3 and 4. On an Independent Throttle Body motor, low pressure vaporization only happens during a fraction of the 720° combustion cycle. Specifically, it only occurs during the period of time the intake port is at a pressure low enough that the gasoline can no longer remain a liquid. In practical terms, that's about 120° of crankshaft revolution, less than half a turn. As compared to the two revolutions (720°) of the full combustion cycle.

4. 'Low pressure vaporization' is in some ways a temporary phenomenon. Some of the liquid fuel vaporizes during the low-pressure period of the intake stroke, only to re-condense into a liquid when the manifold pressure returns to the local barometric pressure. As mentioned in item 2 above, heat vaporization is more 'permanent'. In that once the fuel is heated to the point of vaporization it stays vaporized.


Quote:
Originally Posted by def View Post

Low RVP fuels don't do well in piston engines especially those with high CRs.
Diesel fuel is a very low 'vaporization pressure' (RVP) fuel, much lower than gasoline. The super low RVP of diesel fuel operates in the high compression ratio (CR) of a compression-ignition (aka diesel) motor.

I'm not trying to point out an exception. Only that the law-mandated increases in the vaporization pressure of liquid gasoline (done by oil refiners during the higher temperatures and higher barometric pressures of summer months to reduce fuel evaporation emissions) has less of an effect on the combustion process than a host of other factors.

Which is a good thing if you think about it, because the end user has no control over the refining process.



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Old 12-22-2012, 05:37 AM   #3207
roger 04 rt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Here's some information relating to fuel injector atomization and fuel pressure, and how they relate to fuel vaporization.

Atomization doesn't much change the fuel vaporization rate within the atmosphere of the intake tract. But the increased fuel pressure likely creates a somewhat larger spray pattern, and that would make a difference.

The sequence of events goes sort of like this. Fuel leaves the injector, flies through the air, and lands on the intake port wall where it begins to vaporize. That waiting-to-vaporize fuel is often referred to as 'port wall fuel'. That 'puddle' of fuel if you will, covers some amount of surface area on the intake port wall. The vaporization rate of the 'port wall fuel' is primarily based on the surface temperature of the wall.

After spraying from the injector nozzle, some of the sprayed fuel vaporizes due to the low pressure of the intake manifold. The low pressure vaporization rate is based on manifold pressure and is not significantly dependent on fuel droplet size (aka atomization.)

The remaining bulk of the sprayed fuel vaporizes after coming into contact with the warm inside walls of the throttle body and intake port. That particular vaporization rate is based on a few things. Manifold pressure continues to be a minor factor in fuel vaporization rate, but there are three other larger factors. 1. The temperature of the inside walls of the throttle body and intake port. 2. The the total area of the injector spray pattern. 3. The velocity of the intake air across the 'port wall fuel puddle'.


Some of the atomized fuel vaporizes in the combustion chamber, some from the port surfaces. Droplet size matters.

So how is Iice Smooth coming along? If you build it, you could have a winner.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 12-22-2012 at 05:43 AM
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:48 PM   #3208
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None of my questions ever seem to get a real response but I will try again. Hope springs eternal. Anyway...

On the throttle by wire comments poolside made a while ago... You mention that the new LC gs is throttle by wire and mention it masks poor response by not letting it happen... Lets distinguish between throttle grip and actual throttle bodies. Does this masking imply the speed at which one can move the grip is somehow governed or is the throttling done within the electronics? If just in the electronics I see no real world throttle grip response to remain unchanged. Rider experience does not change right?

Speaking purely from a physics perspective... taking into consideration cable friction and electric mechanism to fire the injectors and ignoring any "throttling" of the throttle... which solution is faster in getting the message from hand grip to fuel in the chamber?
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:37 PM   #3209
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Uh would you mind asking your question in another way?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at.

JJ
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• The farther you enter into the Truth the deeper your conviction for truth must be.
• There is understanding of the world precisely to the degree that there is understanding of the Self.

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Old 12-23-2012, 10:24 AM   #3210
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I get that a lot.... lol. My brain has random access gears. The problem with Addarall is you have to remember to take it...


I am saying I don't see how ride by wire masks poor throttle response unless it prevents the actual handgrip from being turned faster than the engine will respond. Does a ride by wire bike actually prevent you from turning the handle too fast or does it ignore it when you turn it to fast? If it ignores it when you turn to fast that does not seem to me to change the riders perception of responsiveness as poolside suggested the new LC boxer might do.

Are you mechanically limited in turning the grip too fast? If so is resistance on a curve through the power band? If not how does ride by mask poor throttle response from an ergonomic perspective.


Again... I took his post on it to be speaking from a actual throttle perspective. I am interested in what that masking means to the riders twist of the grip, how does the expeirence of twisting the grip and the response of the bike change? sounds like the rider experience would actually not change at all... lag still experienced the same from a ergonomic perspective. I could not care less if the lag is in the electronics that fire the injector or the electronics that pull the throttle body lever because my experience as a rider would not change would it?

I see ride by wire as an implementation detail without real rider control advantage. Why would a rider care which is used if the experience is the same?
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