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Old 12-24-2013, 08:33 AM   #3661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadoca View Post

So is the [IICE Air] default setting of -20 on an 09 1200GS accurate information or not? Thanks.
This should go some distance in explaining the situation.

The information below is relevant for all BMW models with the 'BMSK' ECU.

My informed opinion is that at some point there was a change in the 'BMSK' ECU. As if at some point the ECU was able to use either of the stock air temp sensors. I do not know exactly when or where the change happened, or if it's model or model year related, or what the change in the ECU is/was, or if it's firmware version related. I have several educated guesses, but that is another matter.

In any event, from my tests when designing it, the Air worked the same on all models, even though the stock air temp sensors were different. At some point that changed.

So last week I jumped in to create a solution for the shipped IICE Airs. I designed a plug-in upgrade part for the Air. The plug-in part essentially creates a new IICE Air. You plug in the upgrade part and it changes the Air to work with the BMSK.


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Poolside screwed with this post 12-28-2013 at 10:12 AM
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Old 12-24-2013, 08:42 AM   #3662
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Originally Posted by Carlo Muro View Post

I think their only mistake was in doing a less than optimal job of damage control. I don't think they deliberately set out to screw anybody. They just made a mistake that others found and called them out on. It happens all the time.
Another way to say that is they decided to call someone else out instead of calling themselves out on the same problem. All the various air temp sensor devices are substantially the same, and we all had the same thing happen. And you're right, misrepresenting a no-fault situation does happen all the time.

Joining in that fray doesn't help matters. Instead I chose to find a solution and solve the issue at hand. And discuss the issue.


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Old 12-24-2013, 10:27 AM   #3663
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Sounds reasonable and will give it a try. Thanks
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Old 12-25-2013, 04:21 PM   #3664
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Well, I can confirm there is an issue. Tested on an 05 R1200GS, 06 HP2 and 07 X-Challenge. -10 degree setting read from 12 to 26 degrees higher than 0 setting, - 20 degree setting read from 3 degrees to 6 degrees high and the -30 degree setting read from 10 to 15 degrees colder than the 0 setting.

Note about the variations in readings: the 12GS and HP2 readings were taken on a hot bike and there was some heat soak so the temp reading at the zero setting was higher than ambient. The X-Ch readings were taken on a cold bike at approx 70 degree ambient in my garage. Readings were taken as Real Time Values as reported on my GS911. Temp was measured in Degrees F.

I've bought 4 of these units. Fourth is on a friend's 09 F800GS. He originally reported that he didn't think it seemed to do anything. I just dismissed that as the change to his bike being subtle but he may have been right after all. For the time being I've set all of my units on the -30 setting as that should actually be about -12 from the OEM AIT.

So the issue now (for me anyways) is how JJ and Poolside choose address this oops. Hopefully it won't take months to get replacement units. Poolside, I've sent you a PM with my purchase info.

Thanks to all,

Mark
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Old 12-25-2013, 05:29 PM   #3665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJS View Post
Well, I can confirm there is an issue. Tested on an 05 R1200GS, 06 HP2 and 07 X-Challenge. -10 degree setting read from 12 to 26 degrees higher than 0 setting, - 20 degree setting read from 3 degrees to 6 degrees high and the -30 degree setting read from 10 to 15 degrees colder than the 0 setting.

Note about the variations in readings: the 12GS and HP2 readings were taken on a hot bike and there was some heat soak so the temp reading at the zero setting was higher than ambient. The X-Ch readings were taken on a cold bike at approx 70 degree ambient in my garage. Readings were taken as Real Time Values as reported on my GS911. Temp was measured in Degrees F.

I've bought 4 of these units. Fourth is on a friend's 09 F800GS. He originally reported that he didn't think it seemed to do anything. I just dismissed that as the change to his bike being subtle but he may have been right after all. For the time being I've set all of my units on the -30 setting as that should actually be about -12 from the OEM AIT.

So the issue now (for me anyways) is how JJ and Poolside choose address this oops. Hopefully it won't take months to get replacement units. Poolside, I've sent you a PM with my purchase info.

Thanks to all,

Mark
Mark,

So on the GS and HP2 the bikes, they were perhaps heat sinking...and the X-Ch was not ["cold"]? ...but how did the figures on your tests change because of this? All three tested the same regardless of the bike temp?

Last, and most important for me; from your post if I want a richer mixture [colder 'reading'] then I should [and can only..] set the IICE Air @ -30 to "fool" the sensor into thinking the air is -12 colder than it is [hence a richer mixture/more fuel]? Cuz the -20 or -10 still generates a higher temp reading than ambient.

So called seat of the pants "performance" comparisons as suggested can be at the best sketchy; while calibrated temp gauge readings would seem conclusive. Performance should follow temp input from the IICE Air to my ECU.


Any and all input appreciated so I can wrap my mind around this...My knowledge on this is meager!

Thanks,

Phil
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Old 12-25-2013, 06:28 PM   #3666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
Mark,

So on the GS and HP2 the bikes, they were perhaps heat sinking...and the X-Ch was not ["cold"]? ...but how did the figures on your tests change because of this? All three tested the same regardless of the bike temp?

Last, and most important for me; from your post if I want a richer mixture [colder 'reading'] then I should [and can only..] set the IICE Air @ -30 to "fool" the sensor into thinking the air is -12 colder than it is [hence a richer mixture/more fuel]? Cuz the -20 or -10 still generates a higher temp reading than ambient.

So called seat of the pants "performance" comparisons as suggested can be at the best sketchy; while calibrated temp gauge readings would seem conclusive. Performance should follow temp input from the IICE Air to my ECU.


Any and all input appreciated so I can wrap my mind around this...My knowledge on this is meager!

Thanks,

Phil
'07GSA
On the hot bikes the AIT temp was reading a bit higher than the outside air temp due to the heat from the motor, maybe 15 degrees F higher. Both bikes had been idling for a while. I believe the thermsistor is not linear in its resistance change to the temp therefore the variation in temp difference between the IceAir settings on the different bikes. On the X-Ch I did not start the bike so there was not added heat from the motor. All bikes tested the same with regards to the offset from stock, i.e the -10 was higher than stock, the -20 was close to stock and the -30 was less than stock. The variation in the -20 setting and the zero position is probably due to a slight variation in the thermsistor mfg. The couple degrees difference I observed is basically insignificant.

Currently, if you have a bike with the 5k ohm AIT, I think the only setting that will reduce the AIT reading in the ECU is the -30. Unless you have an 1100/1150 in which case everything should work as originally designed.
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Old 12-25-2013, 10:18 PM   #3667
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Thanks Mark

Therefore, if I understand this, on my particular bike using the -30, and only the -30 setting, will produce a richer fuel mixture/ratio?

Thanks yet again,

Phil
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Wallowa screwed with this post 12-26-2013 at 09:00 AM
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Old 12-26-2013, 06:57 AM   #3668
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Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
Here on christmas eve I want to invoke a thought that a long time friend has always brought up during the holiday season.

May there be
Peace
Love
and
Understanding

throughout all mankind.

And I say, please try and respect one another.

JJ
Good guidance JJ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
[/COLOR]

Therefore, if I understand this, on my particular bike using the -30, and only the -30 setting, will produce a richer fuel mixture/ratio?

Thanks yet again,

Phil
Phil,
Since this is a technical thread and in the spirit that JJ suggested, here's what jscottyk measured on his BMSK-based F800GS which uses the same IAT sensor. You can expect the same results on any BMSK-based BMW motorcycle. (Link: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...php?t=936931):
For all settings taken with an ambient temperature of 30.5C:
jumper in the 'no change' position - Intake Air reads 32.25C
jumper in the '-10C' position - Intake Air reads 41.25C
jumper in the '-20C' position - Intake Air reads 32.25C
jumper in the '-30C' position - Intake Air reads 24.75C
jumper removed completely - Intake Air reads 20.25C
So that means in the -10 an -20 positions your BMSK will read a warmer air temperature than actual and only in the -30C position will it read the air temperature as colder than actual, by 6 degrees C. Six degree cooler air, initially creates fueling that will be 2.7% richer than target.

What happens after the BMSK compares that richer mixture to its target, using the Lambda sensor is for another thread or maybe after Jim announces his IICE Smooth product and we start discussing the technical aspects of what it does and how the BMSK or Motronic handle adaptation.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 12-26-2013 at 08:06 AM
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:44 AM   #3669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodybomber View Post
This may have been covered and I missed it. Why do I not see the -10,20,and 30 degree offset when looking at the realtime readings with a gs911? The bike sat overnight. Both cylinder head,engine and intake(no change setting) temps were within a few degrees. When I changed the air settings it showed +9,+1 and -6. The bike only runs better with the -30 seting in use. I have done the same test with 2 IICE Air's. So its not just a defective unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Ok troll, move along now. Thanks for stopping by. 


SOoo Im a troll?? Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge!

I also PM'd to keep this between us and was ignored.

Now that I am not working 7days a week I was going to post a video of my test. Looks like you saved me the trouble by admitting that there is an issue.

The bike runs better than stock when on the -30 setting so the product does something for me.

Im curious to find out what the difference is in the BMSK. Maybe it has something to do with my stalling issues that BMW cant fix?
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bodybomber screwed with this post 12-26-2013 at 08:55 AM
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:23 AM   #3670
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Originally Posted by bodybomber View Post

SOoo Im a troll?? Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge!
You are absolutely right. I am sure sorry about that one. I lumped you into the category with the other guys. There's a couple of others like yourself that I owe the same apology to.

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Poolside screwed with this post 12-26-2013 at 09:53 AM
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:23 PM   #3671
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
...There's a couple of others like yourself that I owe the same apology to.
You can put me in that category. You ignored my PMs when I brought this to your attention, and then questioned my intentions when I raised the point publicly.

jscottyk screwed with this post 12-26-2013 at 03:24 PM Reason: grammer
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:09 PM   #3672
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JJ - with kind intentions, I'd suggest there needs to be a very speedy huddle of the marketing dept - and a thoughtfully crafted (and speedily implemented) mitigation strategy.

There's a great opportunity for you and Mr Poolside to pull off a courageous and noble save here. I wish you guys all the best in doing so.

cheers - Mr Bull
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:16 PM   #3673
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Does one size still fit all? Thanks.
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Old 12-26-2013, 04:34 PM   #3674
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Does one size still fit all? Thanks.
No
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Old 12-27-2013, 05:15 AM   #3675
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SOoo Im a troll?? Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge!
When you get a chance, send your customer info via this link: http://www.advrider.com/forums/sendm...lmember&u=2870



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