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Old 11-22-2010, 07:10 AM   #46
wgrant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside


The primary problem with the Mono Jetronic is that BMW used it to control 2 injectors with a single injector signal.


I did not know that. It really helps to explain (and the SINGLE throttle cable) some of the undesirable characteristics of the engine.

I even installed a Rhinewest chip, but probably couldn't pick the Rhinewest chip in a blind test.

I hope you guys crack the code.
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:32 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside
Will there be an OS X version? I have an extra MacBook Pro I can duct tape to my fuel tank.
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:24 AM   #48
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following with interest, good luck gentlemen

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Old 11-22-2010, 09:11 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside

You bet. Not so pie-in-the-sky as you might think. You can get virtually the whole way there with external mods.

That 16 year old Motronic was born in the 80's. The version in the 1100/1150 is called a Mono Motronic It was designed for throttle body (single injection point) fuel injection systems. It was re-labeled simply Motronic as the OE product for the BMW boxer motor.

Because of the 180° opposed cylinder arrangement on the boxer motor, the Mono Motronic ECU can be operated as if it's controlling a single cylinder motor running at twice the RPM.

The primary problem with the Mono Jetronic is that BMW used it to control 2 injectors with a single injector signal. The method is commonly referred to as batch injection. It is sort of like wasted spark ignition, only for fuel.

That's ok for spark control, but it leaves a lot to be desired from a fuel control point of view.


Poolside so this explains what is wrong with the present system. Can you explain what a perfect or ideal system would do.

Say you had no limitations what would you build to make a perfect control unit? Would you have more sensors to make more accurate calculations and more accurate fuel delivery in conjunction with timing changes?

Would it disregard pollution standards and go for performance only?

Does another mfgr do it better already?

Does the boxer do the wasted spark method on the ignition? I had a Pontiac V6 that did the wasted spark. I think they said it sparked the coil of the charged (firing) cylinder and the opposing cylinder at the same time and more spark went to the charged cylinder because it had less resistance.

This is interesting!
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Old 11-22-2010, 05:22 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside

You bet. Not so pie-in-the-sky as you might think. You can get virtually the whole way there with external mods.

And for a hell of a lot less time and money spent on getting it working in the first place, let alone the time spent dialing it in, from scratch.


That 16 year old Motronic was born in the 80's. The version in the 1100/1150 is called a Mono Motronic It was designed for throttle body (single injection point) fuel injection systems. It was re-labeled simply Motronic as the OE product for the BMW boxer motor.

It along with most (if not all) of the early EFI systems were single channel or 'simplified' systems. Mostly because of the limitations of the available technology back then. My Volvo 164 had 3 paired injectors so even though it was a 6 cylinder engine it only 'knew' about 3 cylinders, sorta, kinda.

Because of the 180° opposed cylinder arrangement on the boxer motor, the Mono Motronic ECU can be operated as if it's controlling a single cylinder motor running at twice the RPM.

The primary problem with the Mono Jetronic is that BMW used it to control 2 injectors with a single injector signal. The method is commonly referred to as batch injection. It is sort of like wasted spark ignition, only for fuel.

That's ok for spark control, but it leaves a lot to be desired from a fuel control point of view.

Another 'limitation' is the overall 'resolution' of the early EFI systems. Sensor inputs and processing power were crude by todays standards. So getting the older systems to step up and effectively deal with todays emission standards required 'creative' solutions. Translated into BMW speak they are called 'driveability issues'.

JJ
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Old 11-22-2010, 05:35 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooteraug02
Poolside so this explains what is wrong with the present system. Can you explain what a perfect or ideal system would do.

We will write up a simplified explanation of some of the functions of a 'modern' EFI system in parts. Each will be a piece of the whole and will give a glimpse into what our solution to that functional area will be.

But a complete write up of an "ideal system", no probably not. That is WAY beyond the scope or time available for both of us combined.


Say you had no limitations what would you build to make a perfect control unit? Would you have more sensors to make more accurate calculations and more accurate fuel delivery in conjunction with timing changes?

Would it disregard pollution standards and go for performance only?

Does another mfgr do it better already?

There are a variety of different solutions to the complex process of combustion as it needs to be applied given todays rules and regulations. To bring even a portion of this up in enough detail would take a lot more time than would be possible right now. Needless to say we need to spend it getting the devices sorted out and ready for production.

Does the boxer do the wasted spark method on the ignition? I had a Pontiac V6 that did the wasted spark. I think they said it sparked the coil of the charged (firing) cylinder and the opposing cylinder at the same time and more spark went to the charged cylinder because it had less resistance.

This is interesting!
Yes boxers use the wasted spark method. Vintageheads, Airheads, early Oilheads, Hexheads, Buttonheads, all of them.

And the real interesting stuff is still yet to come.

JJ
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johnjen screwed with this post 11-22-2010 at 06:46 PM
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Old 11-22-2010, 05:52 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen
Yes boxers use the wasted spark method. Vintageheads, Airheads, Oilheads, Hexheads, Buttonheads, all of them.

And the real interesting stuff is still yet to come.

JJ
That's not what Poolside said in this post.

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Old 11-22-2010, 06:45 PM   #53
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OOpps. My bad.

The dual channel 1200 EFI shouldn't be on that list.

JJ
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:17 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen
Another 'limitation' is the overall 'resolution' of the early EFI systems. Sensor inputs and processing power were crude by todays standards. So getting the older systems to step up and effectively deal with todays emission standards required 'creative' solutions. Translated into BMW speak they are called 'driveability issues'.

JJ
Konstant Fahr Ruckeln, perhaps?
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:41 PM   #55
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Poolside,
That looks like the MegaSquirt system... way to go! There will be smoothness and power to be found in that system for sure. Way to go for starting down that trail - I look forward to your progress and benefiting from the results!

To everyone else... if it is the MegaSquirt sytem Poolside is working on, no, Windows isn't going to be running on your bike! It a micro-controller based system and it is little more intelligent than the MonoMotronic system on the 11x50 bikes now - the Windows box would be there for monitoring and fine tuning. The MegaSquirt system is quite the setup!
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:11 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anorak
Konstant Fahr Ruckeln, perhaps?
Ja. Konstant Fahr Ruckeln ist farfomgroovin.


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Old 11-23-2010, 01:17 AM   #57
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So... will it replace the motronic or will it run among it?

When will you release the product?
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:17 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marchyman
That's not what Poolside said [about the 1200] in this post.
The 1200 has its own set of problems. The more modern ECU in the 1200 runs an even more aggressive EPA/EC emissions profile. The 2 cylinders on the 1200 are operated as two different motors. Though they're operated separately, they share two things, the crankshaft and the catalyst.

The ECU on the 1200 uses control algorithms too complex to get into here. I'll just say that it's both worse and better than the 1100/1150.


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Old 11-23-2010, 01:21 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Căta
So... will it replace the motronic or will it run among it?

When will you release the product?
Yes, it will run amok. I mean, it will operate along with the ECU.

Info about the release date will be in the next post or two.


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Old 11-23-2010, 07:34 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hasenwerk
Poolside,
That looks like the MegaSquirt system... way to go! There will be smoothness and power to be found in that system for sure. Way to go for starting down that trail - I look forward to your progress and benefiting from the results!

To everyone else... if it is the MegaSquirt sytem Poolside is working on, no, Windows isn't going to be running on your bike! It a micro-controller based system and it is little more intelligent than the MonoMotronic system on the 11x50 bikes now - the Windows box would be there for monitoring and fine tuning. The MegaSquirt system is quite the setup!
Nah it isn't the MegaSquirt. That's so yesterday.

And from what I understand it would take so many custom parts to interface the 2 systems it would almost be easier just to start over.

Besides we dun got ourselves a reel ottermotive genius work'n on this here project. We don't need no stink'n mega squirt…

And remember this is for the backyard mechanic so we have designed it to be easy to install and use.

JJ
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• The farther you enter into the Truth the deeper your conviction for truth must be.
• There is understanding of the world precisely to the degree that there is understanding of the Self.

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johnjen screwed with this post 11-24-2010 at 12:37 AM
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