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Old 06-17-2011, 09:14 AM   #931
ghostrider1964
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Measure twice, cut once. Keep doing it right. Ain't nobody dying here. Except ghost. ;) lol
Hey..I resent that...I hurting like hell from the peridontal experience yesterday...least it wasn't the proctologist
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:54 PM   #932
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In researching the physical, and thermal requirements for the coating we need, we determined that an extra thick coating of a quality polymer is the ideal solution.

What we need is full encapsulation to keep what little moisture the IICE Air might see from touching the thermistor. Certainly repelling a little water is an easy task for most any coating. We also need to keep the thermal conductivity high so they respond quickly to changes in ambient air temp.

Usually in automotive paint applications the paint is thinned down and applied in very thin coats, here we want a very thick coat, like a big dollop. We also have a need for multiple colors.

The range of temperatures these devices will see is significantly lower than in normal automotive uses. Because of that we aren't concerned with aging, since there won't be any direct solar exposure nor anywhere near the thermal extremes like the hood of a car would see.

We even considered a prophylactic approach but we couldn't find ANY mouse condoms

JJ
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:06 AM   #933
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Assembly report.

Ok, I have a pair here curing in epoxy. I think these are the magic.



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Old 06-21-2011, 07:44 AM   #934
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:11 AM   #935
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Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
In researching the physical, and thermal requirements for the coating we need, we determined that an extra thick coating of a quality polymer is the ideal solution.

What we need is full encapsulation to keep what little moisture the IICE Air might see from touching the thermistor. Certainly repelling a little water is an easy task for most any coating. We also need to keep the thermal conductivity high so they respond quickly to changes in ambient air temp.

Usually in automotive paint applications the paint is thinned down and applied in very thin coats, here we want a very thick coat, like a big dollop. We also have a need for multiple colors.

The range of temperatures these devices will see is significantly lower than in normal automotive uses. Because of that we aren't concerned with aging, since there won't be any direct solar exposure nor anywhere near the thermal extremes like the hood of a car would see.

We even considered a prophylactic approach but we couldn't find ANY mouse condoms

JJ
Really? A thick coating seems counter-intuitive to me: thicker coating = more insulation = slower response to temperature changes. I suppose that for this application it may not matter. What about a polyurethane or epoxy glue?

Just trying to help...
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:36 AM   #936
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Thinking that temperature will vary gradually over time. From morning to mid day temperature change is not very rapid. Even driving up or down mountain, temps change at a rate I would think this sensor with a coating on it would be able to keep up with without much lag at all
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:48 PM   #937
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Originally Posted by BostonGS View Post
Really? A thick coating seems counter-intuitive to me: thicker coating = more insulation = slower response to temperature changes. I suppose that for this application it may not matter. What about a polyurethane or epoxy glue?

Just trying to help...
Thanks for the input.
We considered a variety of options and the thick polymer coating provided the easiest means of application and curing, water protection, color choices and thermal conductivity of the available coatings.

JJ
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:54 PM   #938
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Originally Posted by BostonGS View Post

Really? A thick coating seems counter-intuitive to me: thicker coating = more insulation = slower response to temperature changes. I suppose that for this application it may not matter. What about a polyurethane or epoxy glue?

Just trying to help...
+1 on thanks for the input.

I understand how the description of a 'thick coating' doesn't sound right, BGS, but it's a relative term. The thermistor element is a tiny object, about 1/2 the diameter of a BB. That's pretty tiny, you know? In real terms, the coating is 0.020in/0.5mm thick. But in relative terms, compared to the scale of the tiny sensing element, it's a larger percentage of the overall diameter.

In more important relative terms, relative to sensing changes in temperature I mean, the poly coating is 'paper thin'.

Here's a good point of reference. The stock BMW Intake Air Temperature sensor element is over-molded in plastic. As a point of reference, the stock BMW air temp sensor responds to the heat of human breath in approximately 2 seconds.


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Old 06-21-2011, 07:33 PM   #939
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+1 on thanks for the input.

I understand how the description of a 'thick coating' doesn't sound right, BGS, but it's a relative term. The thermistor element is a tiny object, about 1/2 the diameter of a BB. That's pretty tiny, you know? In real terms, the coating is 0.020in/0.5mm thick. But in relative terms, compared to the scale of the tiny sensing element, it's a larger percentage of the overall diameter.

In more important relative terms, relative to sensing changes in temperature I mean, the poly coating is 'paper thin'.

Here's a good point of reference. The stock BMW Intake Air Temperature sensor element is over-molded in plastic. As a point of reference, the stock BMW air temp sensor responds to the heat of human breath in approximately 2 seconds.

Busted! I admit it...at the end of the day I'm a T&A guy...the day job of bioMEMS development is just bait for the bunnies. Why the GSA? because some times the A is a lot bigger than the T...I get away with it because I live in a state that requires a helmet.

Seriously, nothing but respect. I read JohnJen's post and jumped to a reply.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:39 PM   #940
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Well, after reading the intro salvo I couldn't bother through another 63 pages of smoke & mirrors. Sorry in advance if that offends anyone.

The main ingredients any stuffed up EPA regulated air cooled motor needs are 1, cams, 2, intake, and 3 exhaust, 4, valves (heads) & timing, and given the techno computo these days the ECM that controls all that, fuel flow, etc., needs to be adjustable.

And that's really about it in practical terms. There is no magic coating.
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Old 06-22-2011, 04:31 AM   #941
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Well, after reading the intro salvo I couldn't bother through another 63 pages of smoke & mirrors. Sorry in advance if that offends anyone.

The main ingredients any stuffed up EPA regulated air cooled motor needs are 1, cams, 2, intake, and 3 exhaust, 4, valves (heads) & timing, and given the techno computo these days the ECM that controls all that, fuel flow, etc., needs to be adjustable.

And that's really about it in practical terms. There is no magic coating.
Sure, there is no magic coating, but there is magic. I'll have a couple of extra if you want one.

The ECU "techno computo" as you say, is adjustable by external means. These external adjustments aren't about high RPM horsepower. Rather they produce power, driveability, and wonderfulness in the power range that we spend all our time.


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Old 06-22-2011, 12:47 PM   #942
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Assembly report.

Look at the little darlings in their potting fixture. Everything is looking good! It took many iterations to get to this fixture configuration.




Thanks to Mr Head for the fixture idea. Using a second vial lid as the holder is a great idea!




The silver pills are the thermistor sensing elements. As the final step in the assembly process, the thermistors get a protective polymer coating. The coating's affect on temperature response time is nil. A coated thermistor responds to the heat of human breath in roughly 1 second. As a point of reference, the stock BMW sensor responds to breath in 2 seconds




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Old 06-22-2011, 01:47 PM   #943
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To speed things up...
  • Some weak springs to turn the all-thread/cap into a spring loaded plunger.
  • Use some of the cheapo velcro wire ties on a roll from Home-depot instead of cable ties to hold the wires.
  • Good coffee!
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:28 PM   #944
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To speed things up...
  • Some weak springs to turn the all-thread/cap into a spring loaded plunger.
  • Use some of the cheapo velcro wire ties on a roll from Home-depot instead of cable ties to hold the wires.
  • Good coffee!
Thanks for the ideas!

Here are some things that the thread/cap needs to do. Before tightening, the cap end of the thread must swing freely approx. 30° to either side. The thread itself must move freely up and down in the metal angle. Those two requirements are to allow the completed board assembly to swing to the side and plunge into the epoxy-filled enclosure at an angle. That removes all the air under the board. Then the board must be slowly lowered through the epoxy and then held just above the bottom of the box. The preceding processes take about 2 minutes. The assembly sits in the fixture for 18 to 24 hours. Most importantly, when the fastener at the metal angle is tightened, the tightened fixture holds the completed board fixed in all 6 axes.

I was thinking about removable ties. I tried a trimmed down velcro wire wrap, but there just isn't enough room for all of it. I'm going to the grocery store later, I'll pick up some twist ties.

Good coffee is always a winner!

And tunes! Tomorrow is Triple Live Thursday on KSWD! All day it's three recorded-live songs in a row, from some artist. There's a 'listen live' stream at www.thesoundla.com


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Old 06-23-2011, 10:02 AM   #945
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Would something like this work? (customized to move as you need)

http://www.destaco.com/products.asp?loc=&products=Clamps〈=&Category_1=Vertical+Handle+Hold-Down+Clamps
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