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Old 07-11-2011, 02:05 PM   #1021
rattis
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Wink lazy bugger

can't be bothered to read it allagain, will my camhead run like the wind with this gizmo?
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:09 PM   #1022
David_Moen
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It's been a week since the first "production" gizmos hit the street. Are you able to say when you will be able to fill the rest of the orders yet?
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Old 07-11-2011, 06:05 PM   #1023
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Poolside:

How come you did not use a waterproof, 4 position rotary switch instead of the jumper?

I've got some good experiences with mechanical engineering/design of low volume production-quality parts from Quickparts.com (I am not affiliated in any way, just appreciate the service) and at first look figure that it might have added maybe $8 to the COGS (at 100+ units).

Not complaining or anything, your project rocks just the way it is ,
just wondering if you had a specific reason
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Old 07-11-2011, 06:36 PM   #1024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickoc View Post
How come you did not use a waterproof, 4 position rotary switch instead of the jumper?
I used to design telemetry units. Simplicity is reliability.
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Old 07-11-2011, 07:05 PM   #1025
johnjen
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Ok so marketing will chime in here. And this isn't meant to be what engineering was thinking during design, just what I remember.

Over the long haul the seals will break down. After a few freeze/100º+ thermal cycles the seal will deteriorate and when the switch fails the whole unit will fail.

And then there is the torque needed to rotate the switch on such a small unit. Not that, that can't be (at least partially) dealt with, again thru time the applied torque will tend to lead to a break down.

And yes the cost was a factor in keeping the unit price down.

Such was the thinking at the time (if memory serves).

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Old 07-11-2011, 07:44 PM   #1026
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Originally Posted by johnjen View Post
Over the long haul the seals will break down. After a few freeze/100º+ thermal cycles the seal will deteriorate and when the switch fails the whole unit will fail.

And then there is the torque needed to rotate the switch on such a small unit. Not that, that can't be (at least partially) dealt with, again thru time the applied torque will tend to lead to a break down.
Those are excellent points!
It's always the question which of the parts will break down first and then figuring out, how one can make that one last longer, isn't it?

From what I can see from the pictures, the part now most likely to fail first is the cap sealing in the jumper. It needs to be snapped on/off every time one wants to change the jumper. Assuming I guess the material property of it right, it will probably simply start loosing its sealing ability rather than breaking off, time-to-failure much depending on how often it is used.

However, if I understand your design right, even with a completely ripped off cap, due to the complete submerging of the actual active components in the epoxy, the device itself should still not fail, as long it is mounted (i.e. sideways) so that water can not collect in it and shorting out the pins, right?

So, even in a worst case (cap gone), one only would have to apply something to keep the pins from rusting, and it should work forever, right? - NICE!

Just out of curiosity, what would happen (to the device, and as a result to the bike's electronics) if someone manages to submerge all pins in water (say you drop your bike in a river crossing - let's ignore all the other nice issues one would have to deal with in such a case)?
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Old 07-11-2011, 08:25 PM   #1027
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Originally Posted by maverickoc View Post
Those are excellent points!
It's always the question which of the parts will break down first and then figuring out, how one can make that one last longer, isn't it?

From what I can see from the pictures, the part now most likely to fail first is the cap sealing in the jumper. It needs to be snapped on/off every time one wants to change the jumper. Assuming I guess the material property of it right, it will probably simply start loosing its sealing ability rather than breaking off, time-to-failure much depending on how often it is used.

The likelihood of the cap failing to seal properly, let alone the 'hinge' breaking, is slim over the projected life of the unit. And even if the 'hinge' does fail, the cap will still function properly. Once you see the finished product you'll understand why. It's hard to explain with words but that seal is probably the last thing to fail.


However, if I understand your design right, even with a completely ripped off cap, due to the complete submerging of the actual active components in the epoxy, the device itself should still not fail, as long it is mounted (i.e. sideways) so that water can not collect in it and shorting out the pins, right?

So, even in a worst case (cap gone), one only would have to apply something to keep the pins from rusting, and it should work forever, right? - NICE!

The pins are gold plated so they shouldn't rust or tarnish, and due to the self burnishing nature of the plug jumper, any contamination that should present a problem will be 'cleaned off' when the plug jumper is pulled off and them replaced.


Just out of curiosity, what would happen (to the device, and as a result to the bike's electronics) if someone manages to submerge all pins in water (say you drop your bike in a river crossing - let's ignore all the other nice issues one would have to deal with in such a case)?
In order for this to happen the cap would have to be missing, which isn't very likely in the first place, since it's attached to the body of the tube that makes up the seal against moisture.

And even IF the cap were missing as long as the plug jumper were in place, the unit will still function.

AND as a fall back in case of complete unit failure, for whatever reason, all you have to do is plug the original cable from the ECU back into the original air temp sensor and the unit is out of the circuit and the bike will resume 'stock' operation.


JJ
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Old 07-11-2011, 10:49 PM   #1028
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Just let me say as a fellow engineer, it is a pleasure seeing this much care and thought put into a design. In these days it happens so rarely!
One word: Ausgezeichnet!
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:06 AM   #1029
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Assembly report.

I had a little bit of a break there. My best friend and his family came out from Texas to visit during the last week in June through Wednesday last. They've got 2 boys now, 2 and a half, and 1 and a half. Cutest little toe heads you've ever seen.

Anyway I'm back on it. There are fixins on that table for the full order allotment, plus. And a baker's dozen of epoxy potting fixtures.

I don't have anything to add to JJ's above comments about durability. He covered everything.

Regarding the waterproof rotary switch here are some comments to add. The smallest 'durable' sealed rotary switch is still pretty big, too big for the outer box. And the word 'sealed' sometimes means different things than you would expect. For example, many times the smallest of the sealed rotary switches are merely sealed against cleaning after soldering.

I spent a good while looking at unsealed rotary switches for use inside the capped enclosure. The smallest, unsealed, rotary switch I could find is still too big for the ID of the capped enclosure. It's surface mounted, and still too big. So there's that, but also there's also the switch configuration. Rotary switches primarily come in hex, decade, octal, and quad flavors, and have binary coded output. The IICE Air needs a 1P4T output. I did find a couple of those, but they are 25mm diameter, and the box is only 22mm x 22mm.

About the delivery schedule, I should be at the epoxy fixture stage by the weekend. A note regarding the delivery sequence. With 2 exceptions they'll be delivered in the same order that they were ordered (but that could change Boxerwrench :-) ). A couple of active military would like have delivery coincide with their leave or deployment. I'm obliging them, and by extension you all are too. Give yourself a pat on the back.

p.s.: I loved that Caddyshack clip!


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Poolside screwed with this post 07-12-2011 at 02:14 AM
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:14 AM   #1030
CCTiger
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I have a (new to me) '09 gs I would like to add the IICE part to, are they still available or on hold?
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:27 AM   #1031
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Laugh

^^^^^^^^


I can see active military on the short list they earned it.

( vet here).
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:30 AM   #1032
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I have asked that quetion 2
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:32 AM   #1033
CCTiger
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I would just like to order to get on the list, but the link is down for the "buy" button, and I didn't see an update on future orders.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:35 PM   #1034
johnjen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCTiger View Post
I have a (new to me) '09 gs I would like to add the IICE part to, are they still available or on hold?
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogy View Post
I have asked that quetion 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCTiger View Post
I would just like to order to get on the list, but the link is down for the "buy" button, and I didn't see an update on future orders.
Stay tuned for an exciting Marketing announcement coming soon to this very thread.

But first a word from our sponsor.
The order desk staff is currently building IICE-Airz and he is chained to the table as a demonstration of our commitment to YOU our valued customers.
Please come back again when we let him off his chain.

See the above marketing announcement of a future marketing announcement of when the order desk will again be available.

Thank You
The Marketing Dept.

JJ
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• The farther you enter into the Truth the deeper your conviction for truth must be.
• There is understanding of the world precisely to the degree that there is understanding of the Self.

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Collected Works of the WingMakers Volume 1 pg. 590

johnjen screwed with this post 07-12-2011 at 03:23 PM
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:33 PM   #1035
maverickoc
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So I've been thinking about how to solve the issues that made using a jumper the better solution.

Just to be clear, this aspect has caught my interest on a pure engineering-challenge level, and in now way am I suggesting that your awesome device needs any improving in any way shape or form. In this spirit, if you rather not have a discourse on this subject / in this thread, just say the word and I'll leave it alone, nullo problemo. On the other hand, if you find this interesting, maybe for a future revision, You could have me step up to the plate and put my Solidworks where my mouth is

A while back I was working on a project involving magnetically actuated relays. Using that principle, I could see a design, in which one could solder 4 such relays to your current pin locations on the board (in star form), and then mount the dial with a small cylindrical magnet at the edge on top, rotating the magnet over the 4 relays in turn.
The electronics would be completely submerged in the epoxy (100% sealed) and the dial could use a simple spring loaded detent structure to arrest in the four positions (aligning the magnet over the four relays respectively).
There would be no need for seals, the design can fit easily inside your current enclosure envelope, the actuation would be contactless and thus the only thing that possibly could break, would be the dial construct. That, being mechanical, could be designed as a replaceable assembly - leaving a choice of going german-style for longevity (higher quality parts, construction, respective cost) or ultra cheap, just-replace-it-if-it-ever-breaks-style, with a clip-in live-snap all plastic design (maybe three componetnts plus magnet).

Of course, Due to the additional components, it would cost a few bucks more in materials. However, a design like this, should also be able to be optimized to create benefits for the assembly process, shaving off some time/money there, and I submit, that it would provide a benefit to the enduser that they should be happy to pick up the difference - they get a dial with engraved info what setting is what, and depending where it is mounted, it could be even blindly adjusted on the "fly"...
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