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Old 04-25-2011, 02:46 PM   #31
DirtJack OP
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I agree.

It's my guess that we still don't know what the problem is (we are probably not even close). I don't have a theory which is consistent with just waiting a while for the problem to go away and injector cleaner (solvent) being helpful, except a partially clogged screen at the pump intake.
I finally had time this weekend to take the fuel pump and filter out of the tank to see if I could find what the intermittent fuel pump spin-up problem is.

A while back I had purchased some 5/16 nylon fuel quick-disconnect fittings from Motion Pro. These are the same brand and size as used on the 690. I thought I would make up a hose I could use to drain the tank before opening pump assembly at the bottom of the tank. This didn't work as the sound we hear when first turning the key is the fuel pump prime sequence generated by the ECU. It will only fill about a 2 foot section of 3/8" clear tubing I used for the drain tube. If you do it often enough, you can get some fuel out of the tank, but it would be very time consuming to remove more than about a half gallon. I had about 1 1/2 gal in the tank so I used a funnel.

When I began to pull the fuel pump out I noticed that the outside of the housing had a lot of debris on the surface (thin white plastic shavings -- not sure the material was plastic). When I pulled the pump out of the housing, there was no debris in the housing and the filter screen was clean inside and out. The two pickup holes at the bottom of the housing were also clear.

All of the electrical connections were clean and proper. The old fuel filter was not blocked and had no visible debris inside, just a darker color. In short, everything looked good and the pump seemed to run fine when given the prime request when turning the key.

There was a rather severe kink in the fuel line between the filter and pressure regulator. The pump has never been out of the tank, so this was the way it was installed during manufacturing.

Installed a new filter, but didn't have quite the right size hose clamps and may have clamped the filter too tightly possibly restricting flow as the bike now dies occasionally at idle or constant speed, I have made an intermittent problem worse.

I'm wondering, does the fuel pump run continually or is it turned on and off by the pressure regulator or the ECU?
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DirtJack screwed with this post 07-05-2011 at 12:40 PM
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:04 PM   #32
Brown Dog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtJack
... take the fuel pump and filter out of the tank ...

I have made an intermittent problem worse ...
This is why I hadn't changed my stock fuel filter yet
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:22 PM   #33
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I already posted in the monster thread, but I pulled my pump assembly as part of the Rally Raid tank install. My filter looked like DirtJack described-dark but otherwise clean. The filter on the bottom of the pump was clean. No debris anywhere(6,000 miles on the bike). I had not had any issues but I had a spare pump so I installed it. The spare pump assembly comes with the filter already in the line so it was just plug and play. As I fed the lines into the tank I used my fingers to try and push them towards the back of the bike and the pump slid up into the tank with no resistance. I have ridden about 250 miles since that was done with no issues. So to sum up: never had any pump issues, everything I could see looked good, changed the pump anyway, no issues since: fingers always crossed though!!!!!
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:24 PM   #34
AustinJake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtJack View Post
.....the bike now dies occasionally at idle or constant speed, I have made an intermittent problem worse.

I wondering, does the fuel pump run continually or is it turned on and off by the pressure regulator or the ECU?
I THINK but dont know (I've asked others on other threads and cant get a 100% consensus) that the pump runs 100% of the time.

If your problem is like what my problem was (see post above, varnished up pump/small debris build up leading to temporary thermal seizing of the pump) the FI cleaner helped for awhile (I ran my problem pump in pure FI cleaner in a tub, it helped, for awhile), but over time, nothing will cure the problem except for a new pump. I used a 38mm Ducati aftermarket pump, which was 8mm bigger than what I needed, but now there is a 30mm model available, so...whichever your bike uses, I'd get one. It solved my problem 100% and I am very confident about taking the bike anywhere now.

http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/product...ump-fuel-pumps


http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/product...arna-4-strokes
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:42 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by AustinJake View Post
I THINK but dont know (I've asked others on other threads and cant get a 100% consensus) that the pump runs 100% of the time.

If your problem is like what my problem was (see post above, varnished up pump/small debris build up leading to temporary thermal seizing of the pump) the FI cleaner helped for awhile (I ran my problem pump in pure FI cleaner in a tub, it helped, for awhile), but over time, nothing will cure the problem except for a new pump. I used a 38mm Ducati aftermarket pump, which was 8mm bigger than what I needed, but now there is a 30mm model available, so...whichever your bike uses, I'd get one. It solved my problem 100% and I am very confident about taking the bike anywhere now.

http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/product...ump-fuel-pumps


http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/product...arna-4-strokes
Was that on a KTM 690? If so, was it plug and play?
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:14 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Was that on a KTM 690? If so, was it plug and play?
Husky TE450, but I've seen a pic of a KTM fuel pump in another thread, seemed to be the same design, either 38 or 30 mm diameter cylinder, uptake on the bottom with a pre-screen bag, flow to the bike from the top, through a traditional-type fuel filter and through a pressure regulator.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:43 PM   #37
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That sure looks like the same pump....



Anyone with an extra $150 who would like to perform an experiment?

Edit: Scratch that..... I called California Cycle Works to ask them about the pump and what their return policy would be if it didn't fit. They offered to send it to me without payment to see if it works. I'm so stoked....

I'll post on this thread and the Megathread if it does fit once I get it. I wasn't planning on going into the tank again but if this works it will be so worth it.

Huge thanks to AustinJake for giving the suggestion/link!!!!!!!!!

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Old 04-25-2011, 05:39 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Uller View Post
That sure looks like the same pump....



Anyone with an extra $150 who would like to perform an experiment?

Edit: Scratch that..... I called California Cycle Works to ask them about the pump and what their return policy would be if it didn't fit. They offered to send it to me without payment to see if it works. I'm so stoked....

I'll post on this thread and the Megathread if it does fit once I get it. I wasn't planning on going into the tank again but if this works it will be so worth it.

Huge thanks to AustinJake for giving the suggestion/link!!!!!!!!!
Pulled out my spare pump and looks like it will fit with no mods!
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:15 PM   #39
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Uller, thanks to AustinJake and you for suggesting an alternate pump source. I'm pumped to hear this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uller View Post
That sure looks like the same pump....



Anyone with an extra $150 who would like to perform an experiment?

Edit: Scratch that..... I called California Cycle Works to ask them about the pump and what their return policy would be if it didn't fit. They offered to send it to me without payment to see if it works. I'm so stoked....

I'll post on this thread and the Megathread if it does fit once I get it. I wasn't planning on going into the tank again but if this works it will be so worth it.

Huge thanks to AustinJake for giving the suggestion/link!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:02 PM   #40
Uller
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Wicked CA-Cycleworks Fuel Pump

Just thought I would let you know that the pump is in the mail.

And should be here in the next couple of days.....

Stay Tuned! (Fingers Crossed)
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:05 PM   #41
DirtJack OP
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Originally Posted by Uller View Post
Just thought I would let you know that the pump is in the mail.

And should be here in the next couple of days.....

Stay Tuned! (Fingers Crossed)
Good to know. My 690 is setting in the shop not collecting dust.
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:38 PM   #42
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I have had 3 fuel pumps fail, and in all cases, there was very little warning till they were totally dead.
All in cars, but the same setup with in the tank pumps.
Over time, the brushes wear and get to the point they don't contact anymore.
Two were on the chevy work vans, right at 136,000 miles.
The first time the van slowed down, just kept getting slower and slower, and once shut off would not run.
The 2nd time, start up, stall, then nothing.
The third one was a 2 year old VW passat with 20,000 miles on it, vdo pump, brushes worn down to nothing, a bad batch of brushes from Eastern Europe I guess. I took that pump apart to see why it failed.
That car also started then stalled, then zippo.

I have had a number of pumps apart, the pump part always looks like new, the motor is what fails on the ones I looked at.
A lot of people don't know that the fuel flows through the motor parts to cool and lube them.
Run low on gas and it shortens the life of a pump as its running dry.

Fuel pumps run a bit when you turn the key on to prime things, then as long as the engine is turning, the pump runs.

I suppose there could be other failure modes of pump problems, but I never had one.
I did have a Jaguar and a ford that would vapor lock in the pumps in the spring, when we have the winter gas formulation, its designed to evaporate at lower temps (and boil at lower temps).
After a long run on a warm spring day, the pumps would get noisy and the cars stall or run badly.
On a lot of cars, fuel is pumped out of the tank, through the hot motor of the pump, to the fuel rail (bolted to engine and hot) where most would open the fuel pressure regulator and return to the gas tank (very little is used).
The fuel in the tank gets hotter and hotter....
Toyota's are different and have no return to the tank.

The way to check a pump when you turn the key on and it does not run is to see if its getting voltage, and/or measure the resistance of the pump.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:19 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
I have had 3 fuel pumps fail, and in all cases, there was very little warning till they were totally dead.
All in cars, but the same setup with in the tank pumps.
Over time, the brushes wear and get to the point they don't contact anymore.
Two were on the chevy work vans, right at 136,000 miles.
The first time the van slowed down, just kept getting slower and slower, and once shut off would not run.
The 2nd time, start up, stall, then nothing.
The third one was a 2 year old VW passat with 20,000 miles on it, vdo pump, brushes worn down to nothing, a bad batch of brushes from Eastern Europe I guess. I took that pump apart to see why it failed.
That car also started then stalled, then zippo.

I have had a number of pumps apart, the pump part always looks like new, the motor is what fails on the ones I looked at.
A lot of people don't know that the fuel flows through the motor parts to cool and lube them.
Run low on gas and it shortens the life of a pump as its running dry.

Fuel pumps run a bit when you turn the key on to prime things, then as long as the engine is turning, the pump runs.

I suppose there could be other failure modes of pump problems, but I never had one.
I did have a Jaguar and a ford that would vapor lock in the pumps in the spring, when we have the winter gas formulation, its designed to evaporate at lower temps (and boil at lower temps).
After a long run on a warm spring day, the pumps would get noisy and the cars stall or run badly.
On a lot of cars, fuel is pumped out of the tank, through the hot motor of the pump, to the fuel rail (bolted to engine and hot) where most would open the fuel pressure regulator and return to the gas tank (very little is used).
The fuel in the tank gets hotter and hotter....
Toyota's are different and have no return to the tank.

The way to check a pump when you turn the key on and it does not run is to see if its getting voltage, and/or measure the resistance of the pump.


OK, so I imagine most everyone that has had a pump failure on a 690 didn't bother to actually pull it apart and see why it failed. I did. The brush wires were the failure on mine. The wiring basically vibrated apart at the brush. The motor worked fine when jumpered.

The majority of folks probably attributed the failure to the motor seizing up because of the filters clogging (the black crap most people find in the filters is nothing more then carbon from the brushes), which is merely assumption, and probably incorrect assumption.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:22 PM   #44
Visigothic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ-Brett View Post
I have had 3 fuel pumps fail, and in all cases, there was very little warning till they were totally dead.
All in cars, but the same setup with in the tank pumps.
Over time, the brushes wear and get to the point they don't contact anymore.
Two were on the chevy work vans, right at 136,000 miles.
The first time the van slowed down, just kept getting slower and slower, and once shut off would not run.
The 2nd time, start up, stall, then nothing.
The third one was a 2 year old VW passat with 20,000 miles on it, vdo pump, brushes worn down to nothing, a bad batch of brushes from Eastern Europe I guess. I took that pump apart to see why it failed.
That car also started then stalled, then zippo.

I have had a number of pumps apart, the pump part always looks like new, the motor is what fails on the ones I looked at.
A lot of people don't know that the fuel flows through the motor parts to cool and lube them.
Run low on gas and it shortens the life of a pump as its running dry.

Fuel pumps run a bit when you turn the key on to prime things, then as long as the engine is turning, the pump runs.

I suppose there could be other failure modes of pump problems, but I never had one.
I did have a Jaguar and a ford that would vapor lock in the pumps in the spring, when we have the winter gas formulation, its designed to evaporate at lower temps (and boil at lower temps).
After a long run on a warm spring day, the pumps would get noisy and the cars stall or run badly.
On a lot of cars, fuel is pumped out of the tank, through the hot motor of the pump, to the fuel rail (bolted to engine and hot) where most would open the fuel pressure regulator and return to the gas tank (very little is used).
The fuel in the tank gets hotter and hotter....
Toyota's are different and have no return to the tank.

The way to check a pump when you turn the key on and it does not run is to see if its getting voltage, and/or measure the resistance of the pump.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uller
I paused when I read the theory too and contemplated doing the same ..... until I: a - remembered that Visigothic doesn't have a 690 and hasn't been into its tank or pump assembly, b - estimated that you would have to be down to about a liter of fuel for the pump to be exposed and c - thought that if in that situation the fuel would still be sloshing around inside the housing which would cool the pump almost as well as the return line might



Yes I am BIKELESS at the moment except for the kids Baja doodlebug I get my fix on after workeeerrr?

I did some detail looking at the pics in a previous post. It looks possible that the fuel level can end up below the pump level when near empty, yes about a litre.

For this theory to work it would mean that irrespective of throttle position some fuel is always being sent back to the housing to cool the pump. That also means the regulator is critical in keeping the pump cool. i.e. bad regulator means burned out pump at near empty but only then. If one rides with a half full tank all the time they may not notice any thing or not have a failure even with a bad regulator because the pump is still covered with fuel to cool it. Or in another way , only when near empty with repeated running combined with a bad regulator could you burn the pump up.

Now in addition if the fuel regulator is bad, how much of an effect does it have on the injector system? combine a pump that is over heating and beginning to fail, causing low fuel pressure to the FI, also causing lower return cooling etc. etc etc. Think Chernobyl on a small scale, a cascade effect with the bike running worse by the hour. A fuel psi guage would be nice.

Its just an idea but what do I know I got to ride a Doodle Bug for now.

Just thought I'd take a SWAG at it.

Now for the next lesson, we will debate the logic of the statement

"I always lie". anyone, anyone, anyone at all


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Old 04-26-2011, 08:40 PM   #45
Uller
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So, I received a drawing with the pump dimensions on it from Chris at CA-Cycleworks and I have taken out the pump from the 690, again...., and I do believe that it should work. There were a couple of dimensions that were hundredths off but, I don't think they are critical; at least not with the Prefilter that I have on it.

Visigothic - Thanks. I understand your point. You really don't want to run out of gas with these pumps, or even run at a very, very low level for too long, too many times. I actually do not have a fuel pump problem. My stock fuel pump is working just fine currently. I simply would like to have a backup as part of my kit and do not want to pay the assinine sum KTM wants to charge.

The return line does not run into the pump, it runs into the small, plastic cup which resides at the bottom of the gas tank. That cup also houses the fuel pump. There may be some cooling affect of the return fuel but, again, only when the fuel level is very, very low. Otherwise the return only sends gas back to an area which is already full of fuel and ..... at that point in time the pump would be completely submersed in fuel.

This is also a different system than the automobile example stated previously as the return system doesn't get anywhere near a heat source as it is also inside the fuel tank so, the fuel isn't constantly getting hotter as the level gets less and less.

Uller screwed with this post 04-26-2011 at 10:15 PM
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