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Old 12-02-2010, 01:21 PM   #46
Reseda, CA
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Read the fine print re: their insurance.
It may not be what you have in mind.
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by airborndad View Post
clueless and curious
how would those same coordinant's look in the degrees minutes seconds format
would they be totally different #'s or the same #'s with more decimals or dashes
something easily converted or not

This one may be slightly better:
12 F658GS
13 Honda CRF250L

My SPOT Tracker
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:36 PM   #48
KOTW is a myth!
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I think what Rhinoeater is saying has been lost in all of the finger-pointing and "take responsibility" posts. And, maybe, the post could've been titled "D37, I'm still here" or "SPOT: Dude, Who Stole My Helivac", or "LEO stands for Looking for Excuses, Obviosly"

I see some very valid claims and complaints here on Rhino's part.

But first, let me say, Stop with the "take responsibility Bullshit". I'd like to see how most of you would respond if this was you left to fend for yourself while relying on contracted promises. Sure, he signed a waiver to D37, but that does not simply remove the responsibility from D37 from a purely humnanitarian standpoint. We are riders, and we lookout for each other (ellegedly). Leave no one behind, right?.

Furthermore, Rhino paid for a service which SPOT failed to provide. Forget about the money, I've seen people die with lesser injuries, and in less time that it took for Rhino to get to Vegas.

D37, it seems on multpile occasions, said they had it handled (allegedly). They knew he was out there. Did they even bother to start a search? WTF!

Shit, they haven't even bothered to check up on him. I'd like to hear what a D37 official has to say about how many people were sent to look for him and when did they call off the search and at whose request.

Of course we all need to take repsonsibility for our own actions. It's stupid to even make that remark. What's important here is that responsibility was taken on Rhino's part when he contracted SPOT to aid him when he needed it. Couched within that step is the knowledge that everything you do on a motorcycle can result in an accident and how far are you willing to push it. But simply put, if everyone were to simply rely upon the "take responsibility for yourself protection package", then no one on here would have ever purchased a SPOT to begin with. This is what SPOT is for, to get you found and out when you can't do it yourself. PERIOD. A SPOT is part of your safety gear now a days. Much like a helmet, gloves, goggles and chest protector. Would you still be able to say, "take responsibility for your actions" if a helmet were to fail in it's designed use. Absolutely not.

There's an obvious problem with the support on this ride and it needs to be reviewed. On the KotW, support would not clear a section and move on before every rider had cleared the last checkpoint. OR, a support person had direct contact with a lagging rider to be SURE they were safe. This made sure that if the rider did not show at the last checkpoint, support would only have to search a small area for the rider. But most importantly, each rider was montitored via SPOT by the roving support crew, plus we had multiple ground based monitors that we were constantly in touch with and notified us of any starnge movement or lack thereof by a rider. This insured that if the 911 signal went out, the support had the exact location within minutes and could re-route to find the stricken rider post haste.

It is clear to any non-biased reader that there were failures at many points. We all know that we can be the next to bite the bullet at any time, especially when riding ATGATT. But we also enter into this sport taking responsibilites pre-riding, such as getting a SPOT and buying relaible good quality riding gear and letting friends and loved ones know a rough plan of when we'll be back. We also take responsibility for ourselves while on the ride, such as knowing when and when not push it. To simply say that you need to "take responsibility for your actions" and move on, is simply saying never rely on anyone for anything at any time. That's purely ridiculous and a sad state of affairs if this is what our sport has come to.

And honestly, I never want to ride with you if this is your opinion. This only tells me that when and if I need you, you'll be nowhere to be found.

Get well soon Rhino.
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:37 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by roundtripping View Post
Thanks Jo
I can see where a lot of confusion can be developed here
Just wondering outloud (Sort of)
Do all LEO's, BLM, USFS, MEDEVAC, use the same format and SPOT uses a different format ????
maybe a little wide spread communication from SPOT to ALL potential 1st responders as to which format to use and how to convert or links to convert might prevent any future confusion

Decimal Degrees (WGS84)

Degrees, Minutes & Seconds
N34 12 14W118 32 52

N 34 12.239W 118 32.879
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:41 PM   #50
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Duplicate post
Mixing gas and haulin' ass.

traveltoad screwed with this post 12-02-2010 at 01:45 PM Reason: duplicate
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:42 PM   #51
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This is a bit off topic... but out of curiosity...

Does D37 (or any other event planner) have participants who carry a SPOT, or similar unit, add a specific contact into the SPOT emergency contact profile for the event?

I think Rob did this on the KotW Rally.
Mixing gas and haulin' ass.
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:29 PM   #52
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Always ride with a Buddy !!

Hey Rhino,

Glad you made it out OK, and are doing well. Thats the most important thing after all. You "manned up " and got yourself out, and thats respectable ! I agree with Klammer...your ride buddy should have waited in Baker or returned to find you.

Also, most of the finger pointing in this post are merely opinions, and as Klammer and Keithco pointed out, most are actuually assumptions based on insufficient info.

I have Riden with Keith and the boys from D37 many many times, and I know for a fact they would NEVER leave a man behind intentionally.Some of the best guys I have ever riden with. In fact in Cal Poly Penquins event Keith picked me up SEVERAL times !!

Next time you want to get out and ride, look me up to be your ride Buddy !! We will have a blast, and " NO MAN is LEFT BEHIND"

Heal quick, and get back in the saddle asap. Come on out to Arizona anytime !

Oldtimer ( Formerly known as XR650 guy. )
Live to ride, ride to live !
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:32 PM   #53
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i cut and pasted this over on D37 forum.

to keep communication open, check out that thread
"when there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:04 PM   #54
where does this go?
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Originally Posted by Erwin8r View Post
This, to me, defines the only negligence I see in all of this. A human, in a position of authority, decided to do nothing. I don't care if Rhinoeater did't "cry out" for help or a medevac--anyone with a modicum of training or even sense should have seen the guy was hurt.

There are always "rules," and "outs" for exigent circumstances. I don't buy that the BLM guy was "following the rules." I'm not condeming the BLM, or any agency--the other agencies had "theoreticals" to work with (arguably). But this guy was watching Rhinoeater hurting en-vivo.

It appears that Spot did its thing, the even organizers did theirs, and there was just, as someone else said, "A perfect storm" of cluster-f*cks.

Rhinoeater, get well soon.
this is what im asking him... can he elaborate on why the BLM guy did not call for an ambulance?
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:07 PM   #55
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I've got more info. I don't want to call anyone out, especially Rhino. But, His buddies did leave him (let the asskickin begin!) Remember, when one of a group breaks down, you're all broke down. End of story! You don't leave someone out there alone.
Rhino was travelling above the mandatory speed limit when he crashed. He rode off course and didn't activate ems when he got cell reception, he continued on to baker. His chase person showed up in Baker, met him there, and chose to drive him to Vegas. He made what may be considered mistakes, but at the time he thought they were the right thing to do. Keep in mind he may have been in shock judging from his injuries.

notmymotorbike guy, quit with the inflammatory rebel rousing until you get the facts, please. D-37 has one of the best sweep teams in the business. In fact, it's Captain originated this ride and knows every inch of the desert. Intstructions are meant to be followed and must be in an emergency situation. Rhino activated his spot, then moved location and left the course. Read the rider instructions. NEVER leave the course if you break or are broken.

If we had more volunteers we could provide more coverage with sweep.
Anyone reading this with the experience is welcome to help out next year. It's a rewarding, once in a lifetime experience.

Great to see you posting 650-Todd! Missed you in Vegas this year.
President D-37 Dualsport
La-Barstow2Vegas Dualsport Ride Coordinater
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:10 PM   #56
where does this go?
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Originally Posted by airborndad View Post
clueless and curious
how would those same coordinant's look in the degrees minutes seconds format
would they be totally different #'s or the same #'s with more decimals or dashes
something easily converted or not

any competant SAR organization can toggle their gps's thru whatever coordinate format you give them. this might have been a problem when only paper maps where around, but highlights the need to stay put if you activate a GPS based emergency signal, in my mind, tho it really doesnt seem to have mattered that the OP moved, if the event staff called off the sheriff's personel???
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:33 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by eatpasta View Post
yes, let's exacerbate this problem, shall we? Heaven forbid we attempt to educate ourselves about anything - lets just sue the pants off of anyone we want!
i find the first line interesting: "let's exacerbate this problem". so you are stipulating that there is a problem, namely that SPOT and EMS can't communicate properly when there is a 911 situation. to me, that is a big fucking deal. OP is lucky to be alive and he may be in a unique position to affect change on this problem and perhaps save the lives of other riders in similar situations.

if it were me, i would try to find out what went wrong, how they can fix it and force them to fix it. if it means writing emails or making phone calls for change, so be it. if they are non-responsive and he is required to sue, so be it too. anyone who says out of hand "whatever you do, don't sue" is pretty selfish and doesn't think about the other riders who have purchased what may be a defective product. litigation isn't just about lining your pockets with some money: if it means forcing SPOT and EMS into better communications or a better product. that's not "exacerbating the problem", that is solving it.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:05 PM   #58
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Sounds like rider buddy fail. Plain and simple... It ain't a race, wait for your buddy... So you come in late when it is dark and cold... But at least you come back together.
I thought YOU had the map......
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:19 PM   #59
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Very sorry to hear of your injuries and I hope you heal up quickly. Spot may not be perfect but I'd still rather have it than not in case of an emergency.

I'm curious as to why nobody from the event went back to look for him when he didn't show up at the checkpoint? Why didn't the sweep rider for that section stay with him?
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:22 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by redredred View Post
if it means forcing SPOT and EMS into better communications or a better product. that's not "exacerbating the problem", that is solving it.
If everyone sues SPOT or a similar company EVERT time they have a problem, that service will cease to exist.

Suing is not the answer here
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
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