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Old 12-02-2010, 09:39 PM   #76
redredred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowwhat View Post
Spot has worked flawlessly for the multiple riders that I personally have known to use it....flaw-less-ly...

Don't know what you are selling....don't care....but you are beginning to embarrass yourself....
do your homework. Rhino is not the first person to have been left out in the cold for more than a day after activating the 911 function on a SPOT tracker. i followed the story from a few months back of a Texan ADVRider who went down with injuries on the Continental Divide and wasn't found until the next day (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=613416). same bullshit: SPOT called 911 with GPS coordinates that local EMS couldn't understand. here's the kicker: some fellow ADVRiders following his blog with last known GPS found him the same time as EMS arrived.

i don't care if i am "beginning to embarrass" myself by harping on the fact that ADVRiders shouldn't rely solely on the SPOT "911" service. have you ever activated the SPOT 911 function? did it work "flaw-less-ly" for you? personally, i'm buying the device that has worked for more than a quarter century on land and at sea, that requires the user to register with NOAA (http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/) and also has a homing beacon in addition to the satellite link.

edit: =o&o>, you beat me to it! hilarious story: maybe ADV should start marketing a rescue service for riders. we would always arrive with a cold beer too!
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:01 PM   #77
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My $.02.

If you want to be found in an emergency than get an 406 MHz EPIRB. Spot is a private service and that's fine but they are not the same. Just ask a sailor. And 406 will track a moving target.

Don't blame D37. I crashed and broke my clavicle in last year's LA-B-V. Sweep asked if I wanted an ambulance (read helo) and I declined. Didn't know I had a punctured lung and the 2 mile walk to the road was not going to happen. Sweep is not EMS and they have a job to do that covers 250+ riders. Fortunately my riding buddies stayed with me and one rode me to the hwy while the other rode my bike. They stayed with me for 2 hours till my wife got there, all the while I was telling them to go on with their ride. They were smart enough to say no even though it ruined their ride. That's what buddies do.

Re the OP, the BLM part sounds fishy but I don't know all the facts. Basically Rhino was abandoned by his riding partners. Everthing else follows. I'm sure they didn't intend for Rhino to crash/get hurt but sometimes shit happens. Just be glad he'll live to ride another day.

Heal soon,
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:46 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by eatpasta View Post
After spending some time in Vietnam I have always wondered how the SPOT would work in that part of the world.

Im sure if you hit the 911 button there, some random guy would prolly turn up on a scooter with chickens on it.....

thank you A.J. ! that is damn funny!
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:00 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by redredred View Post
Exactly. What they offer is NOT what i could call a 911/SOS/mayday response. Don't get me wrong, it is better than nothing. But what they do is call your contact, then call 911 on their behalf, handing over last known GPS coordinates in a format that EMS cannot understand and then sign off. Brilliant.

SPOT does not use the COSPAS-SARSAT search and rescue system. it does not have a homing beacon. again: if you actually want to have your ass found, don't rely on a SPOT. use it for its other functions, not for its psuedo-911.

you are completely right ... spot is something I would not trust up here in the sierras.. winter or summer.. its kitch for friends to keep an eye on you.

Rhino
Hope you are recovering well..
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:24 PM   #80
AndyCap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiethco View Post
What happened to wait till all the facts are in? Thanks for your input on trying to sue RedRed. I mean why not, someone needs to teach "them" a lesson!

All the ranting and finger pointing so far has been board clatter and supposition. I, we, will get to the bottom of this. I don't want to blame anyone. Like most incidents there are many factors, not just one, that lead up to it.

Some of the questions I have, and this is before I talk to Rhino. Was he doing the speed limit when he crashed, it was 30 in that area. Was he riding alone, what good is a spot locater if you crash alone and are unconscious? Many people have died when all they needed was a head repositioning to open an airway. Did he call 911 as soon as he had cell service, did he have cell service? He was instructed to call 911 in an emergency.

Recently I see these commercials for Jeeps, Nike-just do it! VIagra- your'e old enough to know how to take care of things! All these commercials are touting how you need to rough it, get out there, take charge, be your own man and on and on. The event Rhino rode is one of the last bastions in our country where you can do just that. With that opportunity comes responsibility. But like redred said, there's always someone with the attitude that the 1.2 million is just waiting for Larry H Parker or some other lawyer to call and claim. In that case we can all just stay home and watch Ewan do the Long Way Round and only wonder "what if".
Let's say he was driving drunk, at 1,000 mi/hr naked. How does that change what happened after he was done being an idiot? If his story is true and accurate, many people screwed up.

Let's flip it, let's say he was driving slow, with a brand new motorcycle with body armor, and he crashed. Would that make a difference as to whether the BLM or anyone else should have helped him?

Wait - is it your position that BLM doesn't help idiots? Are you saying he should have rotted out in the desert because he was a chowderhead?

Is that the official position of the BLM?

From reading his story, I get the idea SPOT is nothing more than a fat hairy woman sitting at home smoking cigarettes and watching game shows that calls the police if the buzzer goes off, and then she is done with it. I imagine that the people that subscribe to SPOT expect an advocate that makes certain they get the help they need. Perhaps the folks that run that company should think of having a plan to track the person to the hospital. In other words, after they call the sherriff, they follow up in 20 minutes to be sure the person is being helped, adn identify what hospital they are going to, and eta. Then follow up with the hospital after the eta. Once the person arrives at teh hospital, they are relieved of that responsibility.


With all of that stated, I have a very good friend that helps out with Rescue 3 in Barstow, and I can tell you that whole outfit is top knotch all the way. I have heard that said of many of the orgs out there, and I am sure BLM is the same. In this story, it sounds like one person just didn't want to get too involved.
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:42 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boney View Post
This is what SPOT offers (from their web site);



It sounds to me like they fulfilled their obligations relatively quickly and that the ball was dropped by those "on the ground." SPOT does not promise to provide anyone to you in any amount of time. They offer a service to notify the local authorities of your signal and location. Which, as far as I can tell, they did.
In the qote from their website they says - "then maintain an open line of communication, including providing updates of your location if needed. The IERCC will also keep your emergency contact(s) informed."

It doesn't sound like that is what happened here. From his story, it sounds liek SPOT contacted the sherriff, and did not follow through. Obviously SPOT could not be held accountable for the response time or actions of the EMS folks, but they cartainly should have folowed up to be sure this guy was picked up and made it to the hosptial.

In one of the comments above, the guy said he clicked his SPOT to safe to notify them he is ok. Did Rhino do this? If not, they should have continued the effort, yes?
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:07 AM   #82
Marc with a C
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The truth and Nuthin But!!!

Hello all and please let me first explain who I am and why I am replying to this thread. I promise it will be a little long winded but it will get ALL the Facts straight and out in the open.

My name is Marc with a "C" Nelissen I am the Commander of a search and rescue group called Rescue 3, I have been a volunteer as a First Responder on my motorcycle assisting downed riders for the last 6 Years with an average of 28 weekends a year and close to 160 events in that time span including 5 LaB2V's This ain't my first Rodeo. I know and understand the post concussive mind even more so one fogged with pain killers as seems to be the case right now. So I have waited until the facts have been uncovered to post my reply.

I was in charge of MC Sweep for both last and this years LaB2V a job which I do with the utmost respect for the riders. Many of whom are friends and family if not mine then yours no matter to me, as any would get the best level of pre-hospital care needed regardless of how much of an a-hole they are after the crash. Remember the post concussive mind?
My team was Tail sweep for Day2 Am Hard-ways and after reaching Rasor rd made comms with my Mid sweep team that had just got into baker, they had found a rider on course approx 19 miles before Rasor Rd with his tank off doing repairs, they waited as he made the needed repairs and he had left ahead of them, he did not however make it into Baker first. I told them there was a possibility that he was getting lunch as he was so late into the check I told them to Continue on as Tail sweep for the PM to try and get them in before dark And my team would look for him between here and there.
My Team rode into baker checked the fuel stops and p lots and did not find him either, we then stayed at the checkpoint waiting for our missing rider. We had been there less than 5 Minutes when His wife notified us that the SO called because his spot had been logged with a 911, This being the first that we heard of a possible injury to our missing rider. remember the spot did not say if it was a medical or mechanical call at that time just that the button had been pushed. We got into search mode, Our ground contact called spot to get the GPS data. It took some time to convert the SPOT data to a more user friendly format. Which we then loaded into our 3 response bike GPS Units. And set off to locate our rider.
Here is the Time log

1303 hrs Wife informs D37 Check point crew in baker of his 911 spot call. We contact spot get GPS Coordinates convert into a standard format. and Send Tail sweep Me and the boys back toward his noted location at 2.3 miles off course and 22 air miles from Baker. It takes some time to make sure that we are not heading 2 teams off into the dez with bad data. Less than 10 minutes to properly organize a 5 unit search for a guy that's off course. Get Wife's cell phone # and leave my own along with 4X4 Sweeps to relay any new contact info via cell to radio of teams.

1310 Rapid response team of 3 riders with 2 of the am 4X4 sweeps in tow leaves towards his marked location.

1321 Call from Wife that he is Moving and that he has called via cell and is on his way under his own power to Baker. so Cancel search.

1323 Stop at Rasor Rd for further info about rider.

1330 Hear that he is safe in baker and loading up bike, Leave Rasor Rd in route to Baker

1350 Arrive in Baker Billy is pissed off that he laid in the dez for 2.5 hrs and no helicopter showed up, that's when I told him that it might be a busy weekend for them, like the spot tracker is some sort of instant George Jetson helicopter in a small box? Remember this ain't my first rodeo, I Give an assessment of possible broken ribs Palpate all quads no hot belly, distended or abdominal or back pain except by his ribs, I then tell him I forgot my xray goggles and that he needs to be seen by an ER ASAP all kinds of internal stuff could be going on. His reply is that was going to clean up go to the banquet and then, head to the doc. I told him that is the wrong order but he is an adult and the choice is his. I helped to Put him in the seat belt and sent him on his way

Here is the Rub..........

1751 Call from Wife asking that his goodies bag be sent to the front desk so he can get it when released from the ER. No mention of where he is at how bad his extent of injuries other than broken ribs most important thing other than he wants his swag. He is where he needs to be In the Hosp where the right tools are to find any hidden issues.

First I hear anything bad is on this board So to find out what might of happened I looked for his FINDMESPOT remember untill now I thought he might of been out there close to 4 hours.
After looking at his spot track log
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/f...pyk7OSDVHpqycX
This is what i found out....
his first 911 was sent at 1155 then 5 more times till 1225 from the same location 1 more from 2.1 miles away at 1249 and his final 911 call 2.2 miles from there at 1256 less than an Hour total from first to last mark which is where he met up with the BLM is my guess.

We D37 sweep were not even notified until 1303, scrambled the search team in less than 10 minutes and was en route to his last know mark and called off by his wife when he arrived in baker at 1330. Unless my math is as messed up as my desire to help others? that is less than 28 minutes.

On a side note...
At no time did any D37 person contact the SO and tell them to stand down or cancel the Helicopter. Why would we take the most useful asset out of the loop?. It makes no sense. Nor does the call of EMS effect our permit.
Oh ya Post Concussive.

I have full confidence in not only my own, but my sweep riders ability's to take care of the task at hand and thats why they are SWEEP!!!
Do I take this attack personally?
Yes and No.
Facts are Facts there they are.
We as Mc Sweep give a great service to the riders and their families the course covers over 500 miles in 2 days with both the hard and Ez ways and both need to be sweept, across some of the most unforgiving terrain the dez has to offer. And For "FREE" we do it because we care about the riders.
Its not just a cruise in the park, the Mojave will chew ya up and spit you out if you are off your game.
Read the riders instructions! Ride with a Buddy! Stay with your wingman! all common sense things.
When you are better healed and want to look at all the facts you have my cell #
Hell you may even want to recant your post? Dunno that is up to you.

Good luck to you Billy and Bobbie and also I hope you have a speedy recovery.

Marc with a "C"
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:23 AM   #83
traveltoad
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Another slightly off topic question (I seem to do that a lot)...

Marc with a C, what is your "normal" course of action for a missing rider (same situation as this) without some sort of location device?
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:09 AM   #84
johngil
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Originally Posted by traveltoad View Post
Another slightly off topic question (I seem to do that a lot)...

Marc with a C, what is your "normal" course of action for a missing rider (same situation as this) without some sort of location device?
Well now, that would be a desert race...

No such luxury of a SPOT in that case.
I'll let Marc answer for himself.
When I worked w/ Marc in Rescue 3, let's just say going home early never happened.
More often than not, the missing rider had already packed up and was home drinking beer while we were out looking for them.
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:30 AM   #85
eepeqez
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These things are marketed on eBay in Australia as a "SPOT 2 Satellite Personal GPS EPIRB Tracker Safety"

They are not a substitute for an EPIRB, they are not a legally acceptable alternative to an EPIRB when one is legally required and in my opinion they have no business even using the term EPIRB in their advertising, never mind the eBay listing title.
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:08 AM   #86
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Marc thanks for posting. Sounds like d37 did everything right to me.
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:11 AM   #87
emerson.biguns
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Marc,

A sincere thanks for the work that you do, and an even bigger one for putting up with the Monday morning scrutiny that usually goes along with any attempt to help. (No good deed goes unpunished.) ... and the asshattery that some victims are capable of.

Now, the question is, what is the time-line from GEOS? When were their first calls and to whom?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc with a C View Post
Our ground contact called spot to get the GPS data. It took some time to convert the SPOT data to a more user friendly format.
To be accurate for the folks that aren't familiar with coordinate conversions, the bit of math to convert a dd.dddddd format to a dd mm.mmm or dd mm ss.sss format, whichever you favor, takes less than a couple of minutes. The hardest part is ensuring the format that you receive. I would hope that GEOS operators know how to communicate the format that they use to the receiving party so that the receiving party understands the format they are getting.

I feel your pain. I work everyday with the USBP, and they can't even get their patrol agents on the same coordinate system. Everyday I feel like gouging my eyes out with a rusty spoon to make the torture stop.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffS77 View Post
Marc thanks for posting. Sounds like d37 did everything right to me.




Quote:
Originally Posted by redredred View Post
SPOT does not use the COSPAS-SARSAT search and rescue system. it does not have a homing beacon. again: if you actually want to have your ass found, don't rely on a SPOT. use it for its other functions, not for its psuedo-911.
The problem in this case was not locating the survivor, it was the communications and interactions that were going on amongst all the players, including the survivor.

I have first hand experience with the USAFRCC, the MCC that will coordinate the SARSAT response in the US. If time is critical, I'd rather have GEOS calling 911 for me... And the SARSAT response would be susceptible to the same communication problems as this, SPoT generated one.






.

emerson.biguns screwed with this post 12-03-2010 at 07:28 AM
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:17 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eepeqez View Post
These things are marketed on eBay in Australia as a "SPOT 2 Satellite Personal GPS EPIRB Tracker Safety"

They are not a substitute for an EPIRB, they are not a legally acceptable alternative to an EPIRB when one is legally required and in my opinion they have no business even using the term EPIRB in their advertising, never mind the eBay listing title.
That misrepresentation is on the part of the reseller of the SPOT, not SPOT's fault. If you have an e-Bay account, let them know of the misrepresentation of the product.
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:23 AM   #89
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Marc with a C:

Thanks for your work out there.
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:27 AM   #90
airborndad
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Rescue 3
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