Sidecar Safety

[USMCG_Spyder]

Originally Posted by Greebe

I would be doing this as a favor of course to keep your friend (wink) and the bike from getting hurt.

[RedMenace]

Originally Posted by Greebe

RED--

Thanks for the info on the instruction. Unfortunately for me I live on the east coast and don't have that kind of money to spend. I think that with my off road riding history and on road motorcycling experience that I could probably manage to learn to ride with a sidecar.

Thanks
Greebe

David Hough's Yellow Book, Driving a Sidecar and Hal Kendal's manuals available through the USCA at sidecar.com will provide you with the basics. Get them, read them and find a safe place to practice. Be careful, start slow, practice, practice, practice. Take a class when you can. It does make a difference, even after you have been riding for a while.

2 wheeled experience helps with being familiar with the controls and good traffic habits, but cornering and braking techniques are very different and the reactions you've trained into yourself on a bike can bite you on a sidecar. You will be fine if you take it easy and keep out of traffic until you get your legs under you. just be careful and practice!

[AceRph]

Like Red said, practice, practice, practice.

When I got my Ural, I read the Yellow Book and practiced in an open field in front of my house. Wide circles gradually made tighter, figure 8's, weaves, and braking during all of the above just like the book suggested. Really helped.

Still scary for the 1st 1000 miles or two as you unlearn motorcycling and replace that with sidecar driving. Now after 4 or 5 years, I have to say that I often wonder why I waited so long before giving it a try.

Sure there are dangers. What kind of really fun stuff doesn't have 'em?

[lemieuxmc]

But the gorilla in the room is still this question; If you get into a right hander too hot and start flying the wheel, what are you going to do to save it?

1. Gas it and hope it powerslides around?

2. Throw your weight onto the sidecar while easing your line?

3. Throw your arms in the air and plead for Jesus assistance?

4. Curse the fact that you are about to find out what it's like to be in an Allstate insurance ad?

Anyone... anyone... Buehler?

[HogWild]

Originally Posted by lemieuxmc

But the gorilla in the room is still this question; If you get into a right hander too hot and start flying the wheel, what are you going to do to save it?
1. Gas it and hope it powerslides around?
2. Throw your weight onto the sidecar while easing your line?
3. Throw your arms in the air and plead for Jesus assistance?
4. Curse the fact that you are about to find out what it's like to be in an Allstate insurance ad?
Anyone... anyone... Buehler?

If you're a hot rider, and on dirt, go for #1, especially of there's a berm to roost off of.
If you have plenty of road to drift into, and time to slow down, go for #2.
If you're religious, go for #3.
If you have good insurance and thick skin, go for #4.

[AeroEngineer]

I still think the class is worth it. You'll learn things like how to drift your turns (light front brake while feathering throttle) that aren't intuitive.

[RedMenace]

Originally Posted by lemieuxmc

But the gorilla in the room is still this question; If you get into a right hander too hot and start flying the wheel, what are you going to do to save it?4. Curse the fact that you are about to find out what it's like to be in an Allstate insurance ad?

Anyone... anyone... Buehler?

How do you save it when you do this in your mini van? You can't get a good answer to this on the internet. Take a class if you want to make the learning curve faster and less painful; seat time and practice provide better answers than you will get online

[RockyMtnRoadRash]

Originally Posted by lemieuxmc

But the gorilla in the room is still this question; If you get into a right hander too hot and start flying the wheel, what are you going to do to save it?

5.) Don't do that.

6.) Tell your monkey to stop being a lazy asshat and lean, goddamn you!

7.) Huge firey explosion.

[chiba]

If you live anywhere near DC, my college has a sidecar instruction course in (I think) April. I'm taking it. Please join us!

--chiba

[USMCG_Spyder]

Originally Posted by lemieuxmc

But the gorilla in the room is still this question; If you get into a right hander too hot and start flying the wheel, what are you going to do to save it?

See post 13 for what NOT to do

[RedMenace]

Originally Posted by lemieuxmc

But the gorilla in the room is still this question; If you get into a right hander too hot and start flying the wheel, what are you going to do to save it?

Variations of this question come up more frequently than the sidecar does

It shows up on the chat boards, in class and at the rallies. The problem is you are asking the wrong question. If you get into this situation on the street, you've fucked up, either from inexperience, inattention or over exuberance. The Judge is going to call it reckless driving, whatever you call it.

Yeah, shit happens, but the reason you can't get a definitive answer to this there are going to be too many variables, even leaving aside for the moment the fact internet discussions are prone to misunderstandings. The simple fact is you should avoid getting into a corner too hot. If you do, there is no guarantee you will save it, no magic technique that will fix things. This is true for any vehicle. If you save it, it will be a combination of luck and skill. The skill will come from training and practice and keeping your head. Don't panic, remember: smooth is your friend, abrupt is not your friend.

Here is a bit from my website I wrote in response to the same question a little while back. We teach this stuff in the S/TEP class and spend a lot of time working on it:

"I've been noodling around and think there may be a difference between parking lot practice and the real thing.
I was going thither and yon here in the mountains at a fair clip yet not really scaring myself. So I'm rounding a right-hander that is fast becoming a decreasing radius turn as I see a couple of turkeys and try to avoid them. Whadya spose- the SC wheel comes up and I'm in the on-coming lane.
I'm ashamed of myself. I haven't done something like that in a very long time. I applied the front brake and I came down with a thud, but I was unable to get it back in my own lane gracefuly or in a timely fashion.
I usually set up every turn by slowing down, but the decreasing radius turn PLUS the birds... Well, What would YOU have done?" UE

There is a difference between "parking lot practice and the real thing". The real thing often happens faster and traffic and other hazards may restrict your options. But the skills you learn in class and practice in the parking lot do apply directly to this situation.

Were you... ?

Searching the road ahead,

Locating hazards(such as the decreasing radius turn and the turkeys),

Anticipating how those hazards might affect you,

Deciding what to do(formulate a strategy to deal with the hazards. If the corner is too tight to see the turkeys on the other side you should assume the there might be something in the road and slow down-don't drive faster than your line of sight. If you can see the turkeys you can deal with them and the tight corner both by slowing down. You might also choose an escape route. You might decide that the turkeys must die. Separate & prioritize the hazards, and decide what your best choice is to deal with them in order of importance.

Evasive action: execute your strategy;slow down, choose your line and hold your line.

Use the cornering techniques you learned in class(you have taken a class, haven't you? -if not, you should!you need to learn these skills before you get to the corner!). You should have gotten your speed off and shifted your weight right, into the turn, before the corner. If the wheel comes up the rig will tend to drift left. Stay in your lane, adding a little more front brake and shifting your weight further to the right. Look where you want to go and steer the bike there. Don't grab brakes, don't grab throttle, don't grab anything. If you use the brakes, ease them on, ease them off. When you shift your weight, ease it over. Don't chop the throttle, don't grab the throttle. When you pick your line, use smooth steering input. Sudden input of any kind contributes to lack of control; smooth is your friend, abrupt is not your friend.

The distinction between instructing some one to "grab" the front brake as opposed to "ease on" some front brake is much more important than arguing over when the term "flying the sidecar" can be applied.

Certainly the most important thing to do is to select a safe entry speed. Get your speed off before you enter the corner. Select a speed which you can safely carry through the entire corner. If you are unfamiliar with the road, can't see through the corner or traffic or road conditions present increased hazard, err on the side of caution. Slow down.

The posted speeds for corners are a good indication. That doesn't mean they are absolutes. Conditions, your ability and the vehicle you are driving may allow you to corner considerably faster or may dictate a slower speed through the corner. Just because you are on a sidecar, doesn't mean you have to crawl through the corner at half the posted speed. That doesn't mean drive at 9/10ths-leave yourself a margin. Use your head. Don't freak if the wheel comes up, you are still in full control. The sidecar is still out there, working for you. Drive.

Sidecars are inherently more stable than motorcycles. They require different skills to corner fast and safely. How do you recover when you get into a corner too hot on a sidecar? How do you recover when you get into a corner too hot on a motorcycle or in a car? Sometimes you don't. On a sidecar, use your weight, use your brakes, use the throttle, use the available road to change your line.

Take a class, practice, know your vehicle, know your abilities and know the road. Drive accordingly.As with any other type of vehicle, the key is not "how do I get out of trouble" but, rather, "how do I stay out of trouble".

[lemieuxmc]

"I usually set up every turn by slowing down, but the decreasing radius turn PLUS the birds... Well, What would YOU have done?"

I've always been a very cautious rider. The difference with riding the combination is figuring out how it will handle at the limit of the performance envelope, without going past it!

When I had the minivan I wasn't worried at all because (left or right) it still would slide and spin before flipping over (you kids all strapped in back there?) and I definitely wouldn't think twice about T-boning a couple of feathered turkeys. I'm more worried about mid corner line changes when some Nimrod on his new S1000rr comes over the double yellow because he thought the on board computer could overcome the laws of physics and Murphy.

[Bucho]

Originally Posted by chiba

If you live anywhere near DC, my college has a sidecar instruction course in (I think) April. I'm taking it. Please join us!

--chiba

Do you have a link? I don't even have a rig, but if I wasn't working that weekend I'd do it.

[claude]

Originally Posted by RedMenace

Variations of this question come up more frequently than the sidecar does

It shows up on the chat boards, in class and at the rallies. The problem is you are asking the wrong question. If you get into this situation on the street, you've fucked up, either from inexperience, inattention or over exuberance. The Judge is going to call it reckless driving, whatever you call it.

Yeah, shit happens, but the reason you can't get a definitive answer to this there are going to be too many variables, even leaving aside for the moment the fact internet discussions are prone to misunderstandings. The simple fact is you should avoid getting into a corner too hot. If you do, there is no guarantee you will save it, no magic technique that will fix things. This is true for any vehicle. If you save it, it will be a combination of luck and skill. The skill will come from training and practice and keeping your head. Don't panic, remember: smooth is your friend, abrupt is not your friend.

Here is a bit from my website I wrote in response to the same question a little while back. We teach this stuff in the S/TEP class and spend a lot of time working on it:

"I've been noodling around and think there may be a difference between parking lot practice and the real thing.
I was going thither and yon here in the mountains at a fair clip yet not really scaring myself. So I'm rounding a right-hander that is fast becoming a decreasing radius turn as I see a couple of turkeys and try to avoid them. Whadya spose- the SC wheel comes up and I'm in the on-coming lane.
I'm ashamed of myself. I haven't done something like that in a very long time. I applied the front brake and I came down with a thud, but I was unable to get it back in my own lane gracefuly or in a timely fashion.
I usually set up every turn by slowing down, but the decreasing radius turn PLUS the birds... Well, What would YOU have done?" UE

There is a difference between "parking lot practice and the real thing". The real thing often happens faster and traffic and other hazards may restrict your options. But the skills you learn in class and practice in the parking lot do apply directly to this situation.

Were you... ?

Searching the road ahead,

Locating hazards(such as the decreasing radius turn and the turkeys),

Anticipating how those hazards might affect you,

Deciding what to do(formulate a strategy to deal with the hazards. If the corner is too tight to see the turkeys on the other side you should assume the there might be something in the road and slow down-don't drive faster than your line of sight. If you can see the turkeys you can deal with them and the tight corner both by slowing down. You might also choose an escape route. You might decide that the turkeys must die. Separate & prioritize the hazards, and decide what your best choice is to deal with them in order of importance.

Evasive action: execute your strategy;slow down, choose your line and hold your line.

Use the cornering techniques you learned in class(you have taken a class, haven't you? -if not, you should!you need to learn these skills before you get to the corner!). You should have gotten your speed off and shifted your weight right, into the turn, before the corner. If the wheel comes up the rig will tend to drift left. Stay in your lane, adding a little more front brake and shifting your weight further to the right. Look where you want to go and steer the bike there. Don't grab brakes, don't grab throttle, don't grab anything. If you use the brakes, ease them on, ease them off. When you shift your weight, ease it over. Don't chop the throttle, don't grab the throttle. When you pick your line, use smooth steering input. Sudden input of any kind contributes to lack of control; smooth is your friend, abrupt is not your friend.

The distinction between instructing some one to "grab" the front brake as opposed to "ease on" some front brake is much more important than arguing over when the term "flying the sidecar" can be applied.

Certainly the most important thing to do is to select a safe entry speed. Get your speed off before you enter the corner. Select a speed which you can safely carry through the entire corner. If you are unfamiliar with the road, can't see through the corner or traffic or road conditions present increased hazard, err on the side of caution. Slow down.

The posted speeds for corners are a good indication. That doesn't mean they are absolutes. Conditions, your ability and the vehicle you are driving may allow you to corner considerably faster or may dictate a slower speed through the corner. Just because you are on a sidecar, doesn't mean you have to crawl through the corner at half the posted speed. That doesn't mean drive at 9/10ths-leave yourself a margin. Use your head. Don't freak if the wheel comes up, you are still in full control. The sidecar is still out there, working for you. Drive.

Sidecars are inherently more stable than motorcycles. They require different skills to corner fast and safely. How do you recover when you get into a corner too hot on a sidecar? How do you recover when you get into a corner too hot on a motorcycle or in a car? Sometimes you don't. On a sidecar, use your weight, use your brakes, use the throttle, use the available road to change your line.

Take a class, practice, know your vehicle, know your abilities and know the road. Drive accordingly.As with any other type of vehicle, the key is not "how do I get out of trouble" but, rather, "how do I stay out of trouble".

EXCELLENT POST!!

[storymitchell]

Originally Posted by lemieuxmc

But the gorilla in the room is still this question; If you get into a right hander too hot and start flying the wheel, what are you going to do to save it?

1. Gas it and hope it powerslides around?

2. Throw your weight onto the sidecar while easing your line?

3. Throw your arms in the air and plead for Jesus assistance?

4. Curse the fact that you are about to find out what it's like to be in an Allstate insurance ad?

Anyone... anyone... Buehler?

For awhile I ran a /5 with a Velorex 562. The 562 is fairly light, so I put a car battery in it and when I wasn't hauling passengers or going shopping I'd put a 5 gallon jug of water on the seat. Even with the battery and jug of water, there is a right hand bend on the DC beltway where the 562 would lift when I was running over 50MPH. Up to about 60MPH, a little drag on the front brake kept things under control (it didn't put the sidecar wheel back on the ground, but kept it from getting too high). Up to about 70MPH a little bit of throttle and body english (in addition to the front brake) kept me in my lane and the 562 at a reasonable altitude. I never tried the turn at more than 70MPH, and was always extremely cautious when the road was wet (/5 front drum brakes having a tendency to lock up when they are wet).

With sidecars there is an inflection point when turning - up to that point there are techniques that make it all manageable. Once you reach the inflection point, however, things seem to go south stunningly quickly. For mounted-on-the-right-side sidecars, too hot when turning right means you either widen your line or flip the rig, and too hot when turning left means you either widen your line or try to auger the front of the sidecar into the ground (and then flip the rig).

In my admittedly limited experience, though, most people seem to accept disaster far too quickly. I have ridden with people that have had sidecar rigs for years (or longer) that get the car 6" off the ground and then chop the throttle / run into the oncoming lane / squeeze the front brake for all they are worth.

I learned how to turn left while flying the sidecar, to pull a wheelie, and lock up the front tire. Learn how to do all of that and a little bit of air when turning right becomes a "yeah whatever" moment.