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Old 12-20-2010, 02:57 AM   #31
GrahamD
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
And please, put it on a scale when full of gas. Lets see what if really weighs.

Now, what topic was this?
Weights are in the link thread (actual measured weights)

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...postcount=2381

Cheers
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:39 AM   #32
Pecha72
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My guess is any bike with injection will fail, you need the pressure of an feulpump, so it will be pushing quite a wile to get the generator push enough to compress the fuel
On the road from Europe to Oz, my DL650´s battery mysteriously died (probably just a faulty unit, as it was only 6 months old, and replacement worked without a glitch)... Anyway, before I found a suitable battery, I had to push start some mornings, with temperatures close to 0 C, or even a bit below freezing. And it always started easily, on first attempt. But on the other hand, it probably wasnt 100% empty.

I´d say if you´re looking to go far _2-up_, then the V-Strom is one of the most serious tools for the job. Lots of bikes can do it 1-up, but with 2 people on board, the choices narrow down considerably. It is ugly, but when you´re on a long trip, no-one could care less - including you

(Oh, and I dont think fuel injection is something to avoid any more, as it seems to work okay, even in 3rd world conditions... besides, carb´d bikes are gaining age, and so may develop (all sorts of) troubles because of that. Add to that the fact that if you go high altitude, again carbs may get problems much sooner. And the fact that fuel economy is better with injection. So if I´d go again, I´d choose it over carburetors every time, plain and simple.)

Our 07-08 trip here: www.moto1.fi/blog

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Old 12-20-2010, 11:27 AM   #33
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To be blunt it sounds like you've got 18 months to learn a bit about bikes and use it wisely because your choices all violate your own requirements. At this point you might as well buy a pretty bike so at least you're broken down next to a bike you can photograph while you wait for a recovery.
Think of 650 singles as the way forward. They tend to be the simplest layout and most reliable. BMW make some good ones, I have one myself but BMW also make some terrible bikes, I've had those too. Triumph couldn't build an adventure bike if their future depended on it. Bathe in the irony of that statement when in a years time the 800 turns out to be a sheep in mountain-goats clothing. I've never had a Trumpet that hasn't totally failed on me one way or another and I've had many of them, including a factory prototype. To even mention the Dullville means you still have a lot of homework to do. It's simply not a good bike let alone a good adventure bike. One drop and you can kiss goodbye to your panniers. The Verys is nice but you can't work on it. It's not built with durability in mind and you're buying with durability in mind.
The KLR is a gutless pile of junk but it does tick all your boxes. The V-strom is a bloated whale. Of course this all depends on your budget. In your position... (well next year I'm doing 10 000 miles in 3 months so I'm in a similar one) I looked for reliability first with enough usability to make it the right bike for me. I can't live with a KLR, sorry to all the guys who love them, I owned one and hated it. I ran it up a wooden staircase in a woods and virtually wrecked it, stripped the sprocket of teeth and bent the engine guards. Paint flaked off everywhere and to add insult to injury it was too slow.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by jtw000 View Post
The KLR is a gutless pile of junk but it does tick all your boxes. The V-strom is a bloated whale. Of course this all depends on your budget. In your position... (well next year I'm doing 10 000 miles in 3 months so I'm in a similar one) I looked for reliability first with enough usability to make it the right bike for me. I can't live with a KLR, sorry to all the guys who love them, I owned one and hated it.
Not quite sure what you're getting at here - seems like you're recommending a single, but not a KLR (had one, agree with you). You have a BMW single - so is that the bike to have? One catch with all of the singles is, you're not going to want to ride them two-up and loaded. Or at least, I wouldn't. That only leaves the "bloated whales" - so pick one that's a bit less bloated than the rest, inexpensive, reliable and economical - the 650 Strom.

Oh yeah, and don't go within a 100 miles of the Dullville.

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Old 12-20-2010, 03:24 PM   #35
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtw000 View Post
To be blunt it sounds like you've got 18 months to learn a bit about bikes and use it wisely because your choices all violate your own requirements. At this point you might as well buy a pretty bike so at least you're broken down next to a bike you can photograph while you wait for a recovery.
Good advice.

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Think of 650 singles as the way forward. They tend to be the simplest layout and most reliable. BMW make some good ones, I have one myself but BMW also make some terrible bikes, I've had those too.
The F650 series and Dakar in particular have probably the worst reliability record of any other single out there. Go over to HUBB (Horizon's unlimited) and check out the many cries for help from RTW Dakar riders ... or research Smelly Biker. Good basic Rotax motor but disastrous electrics, bearings, water pump and on and on. Lots of documentation regards repeated problems like broken shocks, burnt up batteries, cracked shock towers, frames, sub frames, even cases of the entire front forks breaking clean off the bike. So you can keep your "Ultimate Driving Machine" thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtw000 View Post
Triumph couldn't build an adventure bike if their future depended on it. Bathe in the irony of that statement when in a years time the 800 turns out to be a sheep in mountain-goats clothing. I've never had a Trumpet that hasn't totally failed on me one way or another and I've had many of them, including a factory prototype.
From when? 1973? I've only had three Tigers ... they've all been good including my current 1050. But I've put about 80,000 miles on them and explored two continents. No major problems on any.

I'd be willing to bet that the new 800 Tiger will hold its own against anything in class ... and will continue to improve as Triumph commit more to building this type of bike. The basic bones are good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtw000 View Post
The KLR is a gutless pile of junk but it does tick all your boxes. The V-strom is a bloated whale. Of course this all depends on your budget. In your position... (well next year I'm doing 10 000 miles in 3 months so I'm in a similar one) I looked for reliability first with enough usability to make it the right bike for me. I can't live with a KLR, sorry to all the guys who love them, I owned one and hated it. I ran it up a wooden staircase in a woods and virtually wrecked it, stripped the sprocket of teeth and bent the engine guards. Paint flaked off everywhere and to add insult to injury it was too slow.
Slow? How fast you wanna go riding on a RTW tour?
You owned a kLR? What year? Last I checked KLR's haven't been imported to the UK in 10 or 15 years. Bit out of touch on that aren't you?

Stripped off sprocket teeth clearly is owner neglect/ignorance and can be seen coming months before failure. Better stick with the shaft buster ...

And I guess the hundreds of RTW and Latin America riders aboard KLR's in the last 20 years have all just been lucky ... including me? I rode my '98 KLR all over Mexico and Baja. Not great off road bike in stock form but has potential and makes a good tourer if set up properly. Ever ridden a really well set up one? Uh huh, thought not.

Vstrom Bloated Whale? Really? Better check its weight against other twins. My Vstrom 1000 was 520 lbs. wet. I weighed it. (The Wee is about 40 lbs. lighter) That's about the same weight as a R1200GS and KTM 990. I put over 80,000 miles on two Vstroms ... not even one single problem ... and my first one was beat to death with 3 Baja trips, Nevada and plenty off road in our Sierra and Mojave and Death Valley and places you can only dream of.

My DL1000 was better than the R1200GS off road. (not saying much as neither are great in tough conditions) I rode both all over Copper Canyon in horrendous conditions. The Vstrom was better and easier to ride ... period.

The Wee Strom with TKC80 tires is a very competent adventure bike ... put it up against anything. Only the BMW F800GS come close. Very few bikes offer so much capability and versatility. The affordable price makes it a slam dunk. $5000 cheaper than the F800 BMW. What most non Vstrom owners don't get is just how durable the Vstrom is. It doesn't look it, but it is. BMW can only dream of such reliability.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:28 PM   #36
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I'm not really recommending anything other than doing a bit more homework. My opinion is that the best allrounder would be a BMW Dakar. Ideally an early one with carbs and low milage. Solid, reliable rotax engine tuned for economy and will cheerfully deliver unprecedented mileage from a 16 litre underseat fuel tank which keeps the weight low and handling lively.
Is that the bike I have...? No. I have the G650 X-country. It's a later version of the same bike but more road oriented. I chose it over the Challenge due to the better seat and much better onroad handling which is key when I only get offroad when I can (not a lot). The fuel range is lousy due to a 9.5 litre tank but I have that fixed now. It's a lot lighter than the older F650gs and Dakar but the real reason I have it is because I bought it on a whim and love it. I have done trips 2 up and loaded and it's ok. not ideal but ok. You can live with it.
In my opinion (again, sorry if you guys love 'em) the Strom is a whale. For a 650 it's just huge and ungainly. I would not be comfortable taking that offroad (and I have done it on a 1200gs with no problem). Nothing against the bike and I know the engine is good but just seeing them in the flesh is offputting because they are so big and ungainly.
So I guess I would recommend the BMW F650gs Dakar. It's ugly but BMWs are all ugly, they grow on you. It's a nice bike but it's now a heavy machine. I'm not saying it's ideal but if travelling it's one of the bikes at the top of my list. I would also consider the new 660 Tenere but they're not as economical, don't handle so well and are not as reliable. They are good and the best ADV bike to come out of Japan for a long time but they feel heavy and dragging the weight of the chassis is hard work for the little 660 motor.
I think the truth is that there is no ideal bike anymore and that's sad. Anything you buy will need work and parts and modifications. There is nothing you can just get on and go any more.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:39 PM   #37
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@ADV Grifter. Ha ha. No.

I want to like Triumph, I really do but i really don't. I was chatting to a guy on a Tiger the other day. His crapped out on a few thousand miles trip. He had to be rescued by a caponord. Ultimate embarrassment. The F650gs has a solid history of being a sound machine. You can't compare rally bikes to normal ones, they tune the crap out of them and abuse them to death. It's like comparing real bikes to KTMs. I had the first Sprint RS. Nothing to be proud of, it wore out in the end and the brakes fell off, I sold it to some polish lads who didn't know which end went forwards. They're probably dead now. The new 800 might well hold it's own in the marketplace but the BMW F800gs has been a terrible machine with lots of reliablility issues and KTM, Honda and Yamaha seem unable to figure out what an adventure bike is and build something accordingly. Triumph just built an F800gs with a different engine.
My KLR was an older one and maybe they have changed but I doubt it. People posting seem proud of their lack of power. Fine if you like that. i don't. It wasn't for me. The quality was worse than a McDonalds chip. Now I have had 3 BMWs this year and 2 have let me down. I'm not a fan. If my G650 craps out on me it will be the last BMW I own. What I would replace it with I don't know. Not a V-strom.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:34 PM   #38
Adv Grifter
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I want to like Triumph, I really do but i really don't. I was chatting to a guy on a Tiger the other day. His crapped out on a few thousand miles trip. He had to be rescued by a caponord. Ultimate embarrassment. The F650gs has a solid history of being a sound machine. You can't compare rally bikes to normal ones, they tune the crap out of them and abuse them to death. It's like comparing real bikes to KTMs. I had the first Sprint RS. Nothing to be proud of, it wore out in the end and the brakes fell off, I sold it to some polish lads who didn't know which end went forwards. They're probably dead now. The new 800 might well hold it's own in the marketplace but the BMW F800gs has been a terrible machine with lots of reliablility issues and KTM, Honda and Yamaha seem unable to figure out what an adventure bike is and build something accordingly. Triumph just built an F800gs with a different engine.
My KLR was an older one and maybe they have changed but I doubt it. People posting seem proud of their lack of power. Fine if you like that. i don't. It wasn't for me. The quality was worse than a McDonalds chip. Now I have had 3 BMWs this year and 2 have let me down. I'm not a fan. If my G650 craps out on me it will be the last BMW I own. What I would replace it with I don't know. Not a V-strom.
Rally Bikes? Who mentioned Rally bikes mate?

LIke a lot of sport bike based riders in the UK ... I'm afraid you are Vstrom ignorant. You know little about Adventure bikes ... bit late to the party I'm afraid. Many are put off by looks and nothing more and have no sense of the amazing TL roots of the Vstrom. You need to get out and ride more mate. I realize you don't have access to much proper off road areas to test bikes off road ... but I do. I'd stay with your X Country, good bike, much better than earlier Dakar 650's which were loaded with problems.


Vstrom does Baja ... for the 3rd time.




Careful on your BMW riding in real conditions. This during our Barstow to Vegas dual sport run. I think that's an X Country, not sure.


Where can't the Vstrom go?


100 Stroms all in one place!
Your devotion to the F650 indicates a lack of depth and breadth in the realm of singles experience. Did you know the F650 BMW single is 60 lbs. heavier than both the Suzuki DR650 (another bike you can't get) and the Honda XR650-L ?? Most likely the XT's are far lighter as well. We don't get XT's here in the USA but all have a good rep.

Not only is the Suzuki DR650 60 lbs. lighter, its tons more reliable than any Bmw, especially the F650's which are famous for fuck ups. Why not talk to Dan Walsh about his F650 Dakar? Ask him how it did in Latin America

Your X Country is a different bike really. Same basic engine design but different chassis and quite a few different components. First off, its made in China ... in this case that is a big improvement over the older F650's and Dakar 650's. The X Country's have been doing pretty good from reports I've heard from BMW dealer friends. I only have seen one out on the road.
It got smoked by a girl on a KLR. (fast girl)

We ride with about a half dozen other 1050 Tiger riders just in our immediate area. NONE have had any problems to speak of. Follow the forums and you hear the worst stuff. On the 1050 forums i've heard of maybe 4 or 5 bikes with oil consumption problems. All '07's. This out of hundreds of Tigers on the forum. Bad set of barrels and pistons apparently. All fixed under warranty by Triumph. There have been one or two true Lemons ... but that's it.

Over all about 95% good. Put that up against BMW or even the Japanese.
Of course KTM are off the scale, as you've noted. Ready to Race ... but not for everyday travel or a RTW type trip, IMHO.

The Sprint RS was truly one of the poorest example of anything Triumph ever made. My '99 Tiger did great for me. Two major Euro trips ... not one problem.

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Old 12-20-2010, 05:49 PM   #39
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I don't think any of the singles would be a good recommendation - but maybe the OP can clarify;

"What I need I guess is:

- good ground clearance (solo and 2-up)."

So... HOW MUCH two-up? An occasional short ride, or the entire trip? If more than occasionally, forget any of the singles. I'd go with a 650 V-Strom, for all the reasons mentioned earlier. If you want a bit more power and weight and don't mind less fuel economy, get the 1000, it's just as reliable.

You need to factor in how messy the roads are going to get, but 2-up (or not) is part of that equation too. If very messy, probably 2-up is not a good idea and just get a lighter single. DR650's are worth a look I believe if you deck them out with a bigger tank and stuff.

jtw000, you're coming across as a bit clueless mate. You wrecked your KLR (stripped sprocket, blame the bike), wore out your Sprint ST "it wore out in the end and the brakes fell off" sounds maintenance-related too (but blame the bike). And the 650 Strom is still a "whale", even compared to a 1200 GS, but you apparently haven't ridden one. If you don't like the way they look, that's ok you can say it. You wouldn't be alone in that! Doesn't make it a whale though.

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Old 12-21-2010, 12:16 AM   #40
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Yep, the 2-up part is critical in my view, too. That´s when the total weight on board goes up, and selection of good choices narrows down.

I would have at least
as many cylinders on the bike, as I´ll have people on top of it.

Means the singles would feel exhausted with that kind of load - even though they might be your best choice for 1-up and little less luggage.

Doesn´t mean you COULD NOT do a RTW on a single-cylinder bike 2-up, and it´s been done, too. But if you rode a single, and a similar size twin back to back, with both bikes loaded with all the people & weight that you´ll be carrying, then the difference would become obvious.

I think you also need to consider, how much ´off-road´ type situations you´re gonna meet on your trips. Versus how much distance you´re going to cover in more or less perfect tar roads. So do you REALLY need a very capable off-road machine, or is it better to have comfort for good roads, and then just manage the hard bits as they come?

I believe the marketing departments of the factories have created this illusion, that we are going to go around the planet fighting in a hellish mudhole to get anywhere with our "adventure bikes"... you might find those places on your travels, too, but generally speaking, they are becoming rare. Especially, if we´re talking about main roads, and that means you can often find a way around those bad places, if you want. Also depends on how much time you´ve got, and whether you like to do a lot of exploring on the back roads.

Just my opinion, and everyone is free to disagree.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:47 AM   #41
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The DL's are pretty much the bike equivalent of the Toyota pickup truck.
Ugly but functional, and you seldom hear people bitching about reliability.
They have amazing trouble free load carrying capacity as well - something you'll appreciate 2-up.

FWIW - I owned one of the older F650 singles - the DL is a far better bike. I never trusted the F on long trips (mine had a drinking problem (oil) and a compulsive eating disorder (VR's) ), but I took my 100,000km DL on a 6000km trip with minimal prep work (new tires & brake pads) without any doubts I'd ride it back as well.

Pete
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:41 AM   #42
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Occasional 2-up only, and more if the lady finds it to her taste.

No one's mentioning the Transalp. Is there a particular reason for that? Apparently super-reliable and quite good at everything including light off-road.

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Old 12-21-2010, 08:13 AM   #43
dcstrom
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Originally Posted by denisthemenace View Post
Occasional 2-up only, and more if the lady finds it to her taste.
So now it boils down to... what are your chances of snaring a lady who finds long motorcycle trips to her taste? I'm afraid it's beyond the expertise of most on this forum to help you with that calculation! Hell, we have enough trouble getting that scenario worked out for ourselves!!

If you think your chances are good, get a twin. Even if it turns out you're overconfident and no woman will get on the back of your bike, you still won't regret the extra power and carrying capacity...


Quote:
No one's mentioning the Transalp. Is there a particular reason for that? Apparently super-reliable and quite good at everything including light off-road.

Denis
My guess is most of the responses are coming from the US, where Transalps are rare. From what I've read they are reliable but heavy and underpowered.

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Old 12-21-2010, 12:36 PM   #44
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@ADV Grifter. You are a funny boy (I find a lack of manners, arrogance and ignorance amusing). The V-strom is no adventure bike. It's a lard-arsed whale built for overweight loads to wallow about on. They have as much adventure spirit as a tax return form.
The Country is a good little bike. Yes, there was one snapped swing-arm. One. I reckon I will take my chances there and not lose too much sleep. As for build quality on the old F650gs, I really don't know where you get your information from but assume it is "man in the pub" syndrome. The F is a well thought of machine.
The Country was not built in China. It was built by Aprilia. Different bike altogether, mate. The RS was a highly thought of Triumph. Again, your information is pulled straight out of your imagination and proposed as fact. One Country got "smoked" by one KLR. Even without real evidence I fail to see what point this makes. Again, are you just in love with your own opinion? The KLR is a reliable solid and ugly old bike that is more out of date than KTMs marketing philosophy. I can't tell if you're advocating it or knocking it.
THe 99 Tiger was the worst bike they put out in the whole range. Worse than the sprag-clutch-eating early triple model. The 99 had a major design flaw making it useless as an Adventure bike. It was corrected by 2000 at the cost of fitting a new engine which gave it just enough power to pull itself along. It was re-visualised in 2002 to make it useless as an adventure bike once again where it remains today. Hence I have no faith in the 800 because Triumph just follow the fashion and build market bikes. Knowing that 99% of them never see dirt these bikes will be designed to only use the possibility as a marketing gimmick. Of course a well-informed chap such as yourself will know all about this so I won't bore you with the details.
I don't want to get into an argument with an American who says the UK is late to the party for adventure bikes while extolling the virtue of a Jap tourer with a commuter engine. I guess you've never heard of flat-trackers, speedway... where do I start with this kind of idiocy? Shouldn't you be on a Buell? It's nice that you like your Vstrom but it shouldn't blinker you to other, better machines. Japs don't build bikes. They build products. They build things to sell based on what others have done. They rarely innovate, they immitate. Exceptions to this are usually reliant on sales moves which have stuck a happy medium, TDM, Bros, Dominator, etc. True exceptions are machines like the 660 Tenere. Should I laugh at you that Yamaha have denied you access to this machine? Maybe they think you wouldn't understand it. Maybe they think your market is just too big. If you think the Vstrom is an adventure bike (by which I mean an enduro capable all-rounder) then i think maybe they're right.
Just for fun a few minutes on google revealed a rider survey which gave the Strom a 77% rating overall. I found a lot of reported issues. That's bikes for you.
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Old 12-21-2010, 02:17 PM   #45
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@ADV Grifter. You are a funny boy (I find a lack of manners, arrogance and ignorance amusing). The V-strom is no adventure bike. It's a lard-arsed whale built for overweight loads to wallow about on. They have as much adventure spirit as a tax return form.
jtw000, I said earlier you're coming across as a bit clueless - now you've elevated yourself to dick status. Congratulations.
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