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Old 10-04-2012, 07:13 PM   #286
BergDonk OP
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Originally Posted by Phreaky Phil View Post
Hey BergDonk, where are you at with the Cush drive bearings ? I changed mine out half way through the TAT along with wheel bearings. It wasn't really bad but had movement in the sprocket. The wheel bearings were really clunky !
That's after about 6000km mainly offroad. I has to get a new Cush drive hubb prior to the TAT as when I went to change bearings the new one just fell in one side of the rear wheel had already been pin punched by previous owner and I had to pin punch the othe side when I changed it on the TAT.
Just about ready to ditch the whole rear wheel.
Looks like Procycles Rad hub uses the stock Cush drive so no advantage there. Seen some pics of Talon Cush drive hubs. Haven't been able to find out much about them as far as durability.
My DRZ front wheel seems to chew through front wheel bearings as well, they are only small bearing so not surprised. I would like to find another wheel that uses larger bearings.
Cheers Phil
Hmmmm. Cush bearings are an issue for some of us for sure. A couple in my DR inner circle have not got to 10,000 kms either before noticable movement developed, and based on my experience, that's time to change them out.

I've now got 3 cush hubs, the original, a second hand one from the wreckers, and a new one. The original was damaged a bit when the original bearing collapsed at 14210 kms. As noted previously, it showed negligible movement a few 100 kms before. I replaced it with a NSK which lasted 7257 kms before developing noticable play. I then fitted an All Balls for 766 kms before removing it, it was still OK, and then fitted the first of the double row SKF 3205s.

The SKF 3205s were fitted to the original hub and the second hand one in time for the centre trip last year. The original hub was in the support vehicle, just in case. Interestingly, both hubs needed the bearings retained because they weren't tight enough. I used Loctite 641 and have not had them move, so works good. The stock size bearings in the damaged hub didn't need the Loctite, so not sure what's going on there. I haven't put a micrometer on the bearings, but that may offer a clue.

So the first of the SKF 3205s in the second hand hub developed play at 10259 kms. I like to think that the double rows won't ultimately fail as catastrophically as the stock type bearings seem to, but I changed it anyway. And I was disappointed at only getting 10,000 kms out of it. Its also the same bearing as KTM use on some of their bikes like the 640. Although I've since found out that they have been problematic there too, and have been superseded, links in the link below refer.

The next hub, the original one with a SKF 3205 was then fitted up. It now has 7383 kms on it and is fine so far.

As I was off on another bigger trip and expected to do about 5-6000 kms, I fitted the original hub again, after fitting it with a cheap no name eBay bearing from the UK. Its currently at 8118 kms and still fine. The Loctited bearing pressed out out fine, and the replacement was Loctited in again.

And then I was planning to head for QLD a couple of months ago, and aborted when the cs seal popped, and expecting to do <> 6000 kms, I fitted the new hub, #3, with another no name eBay bearing from the UK, pressed in this time, and no Loctite needed. its currently at 5603 kms and still fine too.

So right now I have 3 hubs fitted with 3205s and all fine with varying, but less than 10,000 kms each. I will rotate them and wait for play to develop and see how long they last. It does seem the cheap eBay bearings will last about the same, or more, than the exxxy$ SKFs too. I still have 2 new eBay 3205s in the shed to wear out after these are done too.

BUT, in the meantime, a thread got going over on DRR about cush bearings and it seems that a 3205 angular contact isn't really suited to this application, and probably explains why my first one only did 10,000 kms, and KTM no longer use them either. Page 4:
http://drriders.com/post59830.html?s...1925ecd84783a8

So now I also have a new 4205 in the shed, a double row deep groove ball bearing based on enim57's views. I will keep using the 3205s for the time being to use them up, but will fit the 4205 in rotation sometime too. Just needs a different spacer. You could trim down the stock one, put a shoulder on it, but they are a bit loose on the axle if locating a bearing for me, so I'll whiz up a new spacer. Not a big job. I suspect the seal will still fit OK too, especially with the back taper ground off like I did to mine, and the seal retainer I made for the wider 3205 wouldn't be needed with the 4205, maybe.

I do add grease if needed to cover the balls in my wheel and cush bearings, although I didn't to the SKF 3205s as I felt I couldn't prise the seal out without damage.

Original rear wheel bearings went at 18500 kms. A cocktail of NSK and All Balls went in for 2967 kms and were changed out prior to the centre trip for NSKs which developed some play at 18408, so swapped for the current NBRs, currently at 13721. Interesting that the originals and the NSKs lasted an almost identical distance.

My original fronts were swapped at 22233, just before the centre trip. They seemed fine, but seemed like a smart thing to do nevertheless. The replacement NSKs went 17780 and although also still felt fine, swapped for fresh NSKs that now have 13583 kms on them and are still OK too.

So, for what I use the DR650 for, stock cush bearings probably should be changed each rear tyre, or up to 7,000 kms, 3205s are maybe a 10,000 item, and a 4205 will last? Rear wheel bearings seem to be about a15,000 km item for me, and fronts 20,000 plus, just not sure how much plus equals yet. My original hubs seem fine, with the bearings pressing in and out OK each time.

I've also swapped my cush rubbers 3 times, so about 15,000 kms for them, although I'm not sure it was really necessary, but don't want things failing Outback.

Next time I have the back wheel off, I'll have a look at machining up a Delrin sleeve to go over the cush hub where it fits into the wheel hub as suggested elsewhere. Can't hurt?

Any help?
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:36 PM   #287
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can you get a spherical roller to fit Steve?
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2008 Husaberg 700F 104kgs all fluids no fuel

frame build http://www.husaberg.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13268
engine http://www.husaberg.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12131
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:38 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Bushmechanic View Post
can you get a spherical roller to fit Steve?
Anything's possible, have you a size in mind?
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:47 PM   #289
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  • Item: 22205EXW33 Roller Bearing
  • Type: Nachi Spherical Roller Bearing
  • Cage: Steel Cage
  • Dimensions: 25mm x 52mm x 18mm/Metric
  • ID (inner diameter)/Bore: 25mm
  • OD (outer diameter): 52mm
  • Width/Height/thickness: 18mm
  • Size: 25 x 52 x 18 mm
  • Quantity: One Bearing
  • Dynamic load rating Cr: 63,000 N
  • Static load rating Cor: 48,000 N
  • Limiting Speed:
    • Grease Lubrication: 10,500 RPM
    • Oil Lubrication: 13,000 RPM
  • Made in Japan



http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/25mm/Kit10508


dunno what the stock size is for physical fitment but 63Kn static and 48Kn dynamic sounds pretty good

id put the biggest one in there possible, those stock bearings shouldn't fail so something odd is going on, a spherical roller takes misalignment out of the picture
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2008 Husaberg 700F 104kgs all fluids no fuel

frame build http://www.husaberg.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13268
engine http://www.husaberg.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12131
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:12 PM   #290
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So that's another viable option too I guess. It'll no doubt tolerate movement, but any thoughts on how it'll actually locate the hub? I don't know enough about bearings

The stock 6205 is 25 x 52 x 15, the 3205 I'm currently using is 25 x 52 x 20.6 and the 4205 double row is the same as this one, ie 25 x 52 x 18
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:09 PM   #291
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prolly needs a seal too? so maybe a narrower one similar load rating to stock and run a separate seal. im just guessing as usual, with no parts in front of me im not sure if its a good idea or not

wierd stuff happens in alloy casings with flex and harmonics. after i made retainers for my main bearings I found out the outer race gets pulled inward by 1.5mm HTF that happens with roller bearings and only 0.8mm endfloat I don't know
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2008 Husaberg 700F 104kgs all fluids no fuel

frame build http://www.husaberg.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13268
engine http://www.husaberg.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12131

Bushmechanic screwed with this post 10-05-2012 at 04:58 AM
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:42 PM   #292
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My 3205s are 2RS, so double sealed. I then made a new spacer to suit, and still had some meat to put the outer separate seal in, but not much, so added the retainer to clamp it up. Been fine on all 3 hubs so far. And although a 18 mm wide bearing is 3 mm wider than stock, its still 2.6 mm narrower than the 3205, hence my suspicion that a retainer for the seal wouldn't be needed with the 18 mm bearings.

Posted this pic earlier, but here it is again:



The spacer on the left is the original, the one on the right is the one I knocked out. The inner step fits inside the bearing to support it, mirroring the spacer that fits between the cush hub and wheel hub. The length of the step is 6.6 mm. The middle diameter is for the seal, and the same OD as the original spacer. The outer OD is just the diameter of the bar I started with, and protects the seal a bit, so left it there.

You can see the seal sitting proud of the hub on the one on the right, but if its 2.6 mm further in, it might not need the external retainer.

I'll wear out what I have before I try something else I guess, but maybe someone else wants to do some more testing, surely I can't be the only one doing R&D on these
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:58 AM   #293
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So in between discussing cush bearings, I have finished the first (last?) 10 production countershaft seal retainers. They are all spoken for, and I'll send them off on Monday.

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Old 10-05-2012, 02:08 AM   #294
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fuck suzuki needs to employ you.

Doing all teh r&d on a part and then manufacturing them all in a few days.

you would have a complete bike designed and built in a year
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:20 AM   #295
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fuck suzuki needs to employ you.

Doing all teh r&d on a part and then manufacturing them all in a few days.

you would have a complete bike designed and built in a year
Gotta service the Berg and KLX, and reassemble the Scorpa. and fix the window on the kids car, and.....and ....... Ah well

Instead I've been making css retainers.

Retirement is wonderful, but its been 2.5 weeks since I've been out on any bike and I'm getting toey, so this next few days, I'm doing some 2 wheel time
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:41 AM   #296
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Is anyone interested in having Steve produce another run of the counter-shaft seal retainers? I'm offering to be point man on this. It looks like the most efficient way to do this is to have Steve make a run of 6 units.

I'd like one. Anyone else? Feel free to reply here or PM me. I'm not going to require any money up front as long as your word is good.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:53 AM   #297
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Is anyone interested in having Steve produce another run of the counter-shaft seal retainers? I'm offering to be point man on this. It looks like the most efficient way to do this is to have Steve make a run of 6 units.

I'd like one. Anyone else? Feel free to reply here or PM me. I'm not going to require any money up front as long as your word is good.
I'd be in, as long as the price isn't ridiculous.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:39 PM   #298
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I'd be in, as long as the price isn't ridiculous.
The retainers are $40. Of course, each of us would split the shipping charge from Oz to the US. And, then there would be shipping from me to you.

You're just north of me so I'm guessing less than $50. If you happen to find yourself in Chicago-land, I'd be happy to meet you someplace near O'Hare.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:37 PM   #299
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The retainers are $40. Of course, each of us would split the shipping charge from Oz to the US. And, then there would be shipping from me to you.

You're just north of me so I'm guessing less than $50. If you happen to find yourself in Chicago-land, I'd be happy to meet you someplace near O'Hare.
Sounds good - count me in.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:18 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
My 3205s are 2RS, so double sealed. I then made a new spacer to suit, and still had some meat to put the outer separate seal in, but not much, so added the retainer to clamp it up. Been fine on all 3 hubs so far. And although a 18 mm wide bearing is 3 mm wider than stock, its still 2.6 mm narrower than the 3205, hence my suspicion that a retainer for the seal wouldn't be needed with the 18 mm bearings.

Posted this pic earlier, but here it is again:



The spacer on the left is the original, the one on the right is the one I knocked out. The inner step fits inside the bearing to support it, mirroring the spacer that fits between the cush hub and wheel hub. The length of the step is 6.6 mm. The middle diameter is for the seal, and the same OD as the original spacer. The outer OD is just the diameter of the bar I started with, and protects the seal a bit, so left it there.

You can see the seal sitting proud of the hub on the one on the right, but if its 2.6 mm further in, it might not need the external retainer.

I'll wear out what I have before I try something else I guess, but maybe someone else wants to do some more testing, surely I can't be the only one doing R&D on these
Thanks Steve, might have a look at one of the 4205 bearings when we get home. Would be nice to find a good reliable setup for the Cush drive. As you already know, they can go from ok to stuffed in a short time. Give me a PM if you do another bunch of seal retainers.
Cheers Phil.
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