BergDonk's DR650

[BergDonk]

I found these animations that might help. The first is a twin cam motor, but otherwise a bit like the DR, and the second is a Porsche boxer, but its a single cam setup like the DR on its side. Note how much time the cams are on the base circle.



This ones pretty good too, and just like a DR. Its got play and pause buttons. Scroll down a bit:
http://library.thinkquest.org/C006011/english/sites/ottomotor.php3?f=2&b=50&j=1&fl=1&v=0

And another:
http://www.mekanizmalar.com/camshaft.html

On my Bergs, they have equal clearances for inlet and exhaust and it happens to coincide with 60 deg, which conicidentally is one nut flat. Its a lot more cramped than the DR, and because of the way its 'elephant' foot tappets wear, ie concave, more accurate then feelers. I never check with feelers, just seat and back off and its done. More room in the DR to work, and easy to get the feelers in, so why not? The tappets look like they won't wear funmy either, so the feelers are OK.

When you seat the tappet screw, make sure you've backed off the locknut enough so that you don't get a false reading. Also, gently seat it a couple of times to squeeze out any oil film that might also give a false reading.

[BergDonk]

Originally Posted by Bubba Bauer

If you don`t have an adjustment tool you can use the square headed wood decking screw which head is a perfect fit just don`t forget to carve a fancy knob like Bergdonks and hammer the screw in, otherwise if you manage to drop it inside the heart its a major PITA to fish it out especially if you buy an alu one like I did .

The 60-90 deg increment lines on top of them is an awesome idea I was always marking the knob and the head and trying to eyeballing it, but this one is so much more smarter! Thank you!

An aluminium deck screw and magnets don't mix I assume? PITA for sure

[farcall]

Thanks for write-up Steve. Sorta like Kernel was saying... your post is going straight to the pool room.

Tappet adjustment tool... http://store.onetenmotorcycles.com.a...b_category=116

The link might save someone (in Oz) a little google time.

[BergDonk]

I've sort of mentioned this before but seeing as how the relays were in front of me and the camera was to hand:



I fitted 2 relays, one for high beam and one for low. There's enough room under the rhs sidecover using heavy gauge self tappers into the airbox to secure them. Mine are in the corner.

The stock wiring harness sends power to the front to the dip switch in the lhs handlebar, then back to the fuse block under the rhs sidecover, then forward again to the headlight. Not very efficient!

Mounting the relays here means the battery is handy, as is the feed from the dip switch. I also fitted a +80% bulb at the time with heavier cable for the relays to the light and got a noticeable improvement in light output.

Its a bit of an overkill now that I have the HID, fitted almost 2 years ago, because it has its own feed from the battery and relay, so all these relays do is feed the HID relay. But if I revert to a QH H4, its still all there .

[BergDonk]

The occasional squeal from the starter has been evident intermittently for a while, and like others have reported, mostly happens when it’s cold, and the ambient temp is too. Pretty much a standard DR650 'feature'. So seeing as I had TDCC set after doing the valves and my knee is limiting my activities at the moment, it seemed like a good opportunity to have a closer look.

I know this has been attended to by many, and I found some good write-ups including this one:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=832297

which has a link to a pretty much definitive writeup here:
http://motorcycle-junkie.blogspot.co...-easy-fix.html

What follows is not a repeat of the above, but maybe augmented with some of what happened when I did it.

So time to get into it. I removed the carby for a few reasons, one is that the FCR is a ‘tall’ carb and there is less space under it, and second, was that I have some needle and jetting changes to make, and I wanted to fit an adjustable leak jet which needs even more space. Off with the breathers, fuel line and throttle cables.




In the above pic not only is the carb gone, but so is the oil line from the filter to the head and countershaft. A banjo bolt each and 2 soft washers on each, so look out for them. As the bike had been sitting for a while there was no oil in the line, so no mess to wipe up. Others suggest to disconnect the battery, which can't hurt. But, the power to the starter motor that needs disconnecting comes from the starter relay, so unless you think someone might turn on the ignition and press the starter button while its apart, its not really necessary.




I thought it might be possible to remove the starter without removing the cam chain tensioner. Close, and after removing the one screw and the cap, almost, but no. So it has to come off to get the starter out. Of cource its still at TDCC. Remove the second screw and with a gentle tap, the tensioner comes out. Note that its not necessary to remove the exhaust at all, although it might be if the carb is still there, dunno.




The starter is now on the bench. Notice that there is some alignment marks on the end housings and main body that I've highlighted with a marker. Makes it easier to remember how to put it together.




Removing the two bolts holding the whole thing together allows each end to be removed. Mine was really clean inside with almost no carbon brush residue. Perhaps a reflection that I don't do stop start type riding, and when it does start, it starts very easily, with barely one revolution before firing.

The pic above show the rhs cover that houses the sintered bronze bush, supposedly the noisy one, soaking overnight in some ATF after cleaning. Keep an eye out for the shim spacer washers on the shaft and remember where they go for later assembly. This allows some oil to penetrate/permeate the porous bearing/bushing. After I tipped the excess out, there was still some sitting inside the housing behind the bush. I decided to leave it there.

The bearing at the other end of the starter is actually a needle bearing and is lubricated by the engine oil splashing around. There is an oil seal on the shaft behind it. There is also a couple of shim washers in there too. This means that its not really necessary to remove the starter to clean and lube up the bronze bushing. Apparently, its possible to remove the end housing in situ, and this may mean the cam chain tensioner, and perhaps the oil line, can stay put. Dunno.

I reassembled the starter using a light smear of high temp grease on the seals to help them seal, and also on the shaft where it goes into the bush.

What I also did was shorten the bolt that attaches the power cable to make some room for the adjustable leak jet., so its now only attached with one nut loctited on.

Although I had a new CCT gasket, the original was almost intact, so I after retracting it, I put it back with a light smear of 3 Bond White.

Does it work? Dunno yet, gotta do the carb next.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

[Adv Grifter]

Originally Posted by BergDonk

I fitted 2 relays, one for high beam and one for low. There's enough room under the rhs sidecover using heavy gauge self tappers into the airbox to secure them. Mine are in the corner.

The stock wiring harness sends power to the front to the dip switch in the lhs handlebar, then back to the fuse block under the rhs sidecover, then forward again to the headlight. Not very efficient!

Mounting the relays here means the battery is handy, as is the feed from the dip switch. I also fitted a +80% bulb at the time with heavier cable for the relays to the light and got a noticeable improvement in light output.

Its a bit of an overkill now that I have the HID, fitted almost 2 years ago, because it has its own feed from the battery and relay, so all these relays do is feed the HID relay. But if I revert to a QH H4, itsstill all there.

Were relays added because of the +80% bulb? How many Watts is that bulb? Anything much higher than 55 Watt can MELT bulb plug and wiring.
Another reason I like the HID ... they run cool.

For my single bulb 35 Watt HID install I did not have to run any wires anywhere, no relays. I simply plugged into H-4 ... the HID ignitor and ballast all live in headlight cowl. No extra wiring to short, abrade, get pulled or melt. If my HID should ever fail, its 5 minutes to pull cowl, swap out HID bulb for standard bulb.

Thanks for the pics and comments on starter removal/service. I'd like to know a way to service the starter without removal, in situ ... you alluded to this but weren't sure if it can be done. Any way to do it?

Anyone know?

Cheers!

[ER70S-2]

BD:
I was unaware that the headlight wiring ran all the way back to the fuses and then forward again. When I ran 12ga and relays, I wedged them in on the left side of the headlight and I've never been happy with the way it turned out, a wiring rat's nest. The only positive is that I can plug it back to stock on the trail if necessary. When it warms up, I'll be redoing it using your relay locations. Thx

Originally Posted by Adv Grifter

Thanks for the pics and comments on starter removal/service. I'd like to know a way to service the starter without removal, in situ ... you alluded to this but weren't sure if it can be done. Any way to do it?

Anyone know?

Cheers!

I did mine on the bike. I knew about the exhaust header bolts being a PITA and didn't want to complicate my life. So I removed the oil line and CCT, removed both long screws from the starter, wiggled off the end cap and greased the armature bushing with marine grease. That was almost 30,000 miles ago and the starter hasn't made a peep since.

Get something to sit on and take your time. It's very tight in there so patience is a virtue. BD already mentioned that the engine needs to be at TDCC for proper CCT R&R.

[BergDonk]

Originally Posted by Adv Grifter

Were relays added because of the +80% bulb? How many Watts is that bulb? Anything much higher than 55 Watt can MELT bulb plug and wiring.
Another reason I like the HID ... they run cool.

For my single bulb 35 Watt HID install I did not have to run any wires anywhere, no relays. I simply plugged into H-4 ... the HID ignitor and ballast all live in headlight cowl. No extra wiring to short, abrade, get pulled or melt. If my HID should ever fail, its 5 minutes to pull cowl, swap out HID bulb for standard bulb.

The relays were fitted to improve the performance of the standard bulb, which was replaced with the + 80%. '+' series bulbs are more light for the same wattage, so + 80% is 80% more light than the stock H4 for the same 55/60 watts. You can now get + 100% which are even better on paper, and perhaps in the dark too. Because of inconsistencies in the way these things are measured, a good brand bulb gives some confidence. I like the Philips + 80s because they work as advertised. Some cheaper ones I tried didn't seem to be any brighter than standard bulbs. I have them in my 4 wheelers, and the 1400GTR too. You can never have enough light out here to help spotting and dodging wildlife at night.

It seems the Philips are now + 100%:
http://www.powerbulbs.com/au/store/c...eadlight-bulbs

Lighting performance is improved by reducing the voltage drop to the light and this is done by removing as many switches and connections as possible, using heavier gauge wire than stock, and having as direct and short length of cable from the battery as you can get. Part of the equation is to have high current relays too. These are rated at 30A, so less drop across the relay at the 5A or so that a H4 pulls.

As noted above, mounting the relays here facilitates the above objective, and its space that's available, and its adjacent to the headlight fuses and the wiring is there too. It just made sense to me.

Then I fitted the HID, so I don't need it, unless I revert back to a QH bulb. But its there, and it works. If I wanted to save a few grams weight, I could pull it out, but for the moment its fine. The relays do add another point of failure, so its arguably ultimately a less reliable solution, but I've been doing it this way on my road bikes for 40 years without issue. Small sample I know

And the space might be useful for something else for others, electrical or otherwise. Using self tappers to mount the relays, or whatever, means limited or no fabrication is necessary, and screwing them into the airbox at the corner means no obstructions inside to jag knuckles or foam on.

Originally Posted by Adv Grifter

Thanks for the pics and comments on starter removal/service. I'd like to know a way to service the starter without removal, in situ ... you alluded to this but weren't sure if it can be done. Any way to do it?

Anyone know?

Cheers!

The end cap of the starter will definitely come off in situ as confirmed by ER70S-2 above. Others have reported doing it, and as I discovered, its all that needs to happen as the front bearing is a needle lubed by the gearbox. This wasn't clear to me from the other reports I'd read. One reason to remove it is to remove any crud thats accumulated there under the starter. I had dirt, a few rocks, some leaf and stick matter, and a piece of mirror that might have arrived there after I broke a rhs mirror when it slapped a passing tree branch, dunno. There is also a drain hole that could get blocked, so you get access to that too.

And if you have to remove the oil line and CCT to get the end cap off, the starter is ready to come out anyway, assuming it can get past both the exhaust and carb with them still in place.

Removing the oil line is simple, 3 banjo bolts, just keep it clean and crud out while its open, and don't over tighten them when its time.

The CCT should not be feared either, as long as you have TDCC, it'll be fine. Make sure you have anew gasket just in case, then you won't need it.

You remove it by undoing the two mounting screws then it comes off. It may be stuck to the gasket, as mine was, so a light tap with a soft hammer freed it up. As it comes out, the plunger will extend trying to the tension the chain some more.

When reassembling it, you need to compress the plunger and turn the screw under the cap when doing it. When its right in, a small extra turn will lock it. Once its back in place, release the screw and you hear the plunger extend out to the tensioner blade and all good, easy.

[DR Steve]

Originally Posted by BergDonk

Injuries we brushed off when we were kids now takes months to get over, and the same ones come back to haunt us too. Getting old, bummer.............

25 deg C here today again and cloudless sky, and no riding for me again today. Did a 4wd trip to the coast yesterday to visit the motherinlaw, which was OK, but......

If the knee bends a bit more later in the week I might get out on the 1400GTR, but too many police about at the moment for a proper road bike ride unfortunately. Not to mention all the holidayers wandering all over the road.



According to DR Steve its a bit leaner up to 1/4 throttle, so will also likely need to go from a 38 to a 40 pilot. Specs for normal Keihin needles are readily available, but the dual taper Honda ones are not something I've been able to access on the web (yet). I'll take some measurements when I get to it and we'll see.

Hi Steve,

No good about the knees - hope your up and riding soon.

It's hard to find much info on the factory Honda needles, the dual taper is not unique to the Honda spec needles, it's just that I already had a NKKT and went from there. The last letter follows Keihin specs for straight diameter. This table does not show the NCVT, but it's obviously the next leanest from the listed NCVS.

It does not show the first and second taper on that chart at all, but it's there.

The problem I found with the single taper needles was an E taper is too much, while a D is not enough. So you use an E (EMP) and end up either too lean at 1/4 or too rich at 3/4. If you use a clip position to give good mixtures at 1/2-3/4, you will be way too lean at 1/4. I tried an EMT which is good at 1/8, way too lean at 1/4 and a bit rich at 3/4. those needles are just the wrong shape. The JD needles have a dual taper very similar to the Honda needles. Experiments with the JD red was what led me to trying the Honda needles.
This graph shows the affect of that early extra taper.

The needles are basically the same, apart from the second early taper indicated by the blue line. This fixes all the above mentioned issues.

It's the throttle position that gets used most frequently on the DR if it's being adventure ridden.

Cheers,
Steve

[Kernel]

Here's a chart which helps me understand what each of the letters mean, oddly it doesn't have a column for the fourth letter but it's still a very nice chart.



So an NCVT needle would have a taper of 4 degrees, an L1 length of 36.35mm and a diameter of the widest point below the clip indentations of 2.795mm.

Now if someone would add the fourth letter to the chart that would be just peach pie.

[BergDonk]

Originally Posted by Kernel

Here's a chart which helps me understand what each of the letters mean, oddly it doesn't have a column for the fourth letter but it's still a very nice chart.

So an NCVT needle would have a taper of 4 degrees, an L1 length of 36.35mm and a diameter of the widest point below the clip indentations of 2.795mm.

Now if someone would add the fourth letter to the chart that would be just peach pie.

Except it doesn't apply to the NCVT, only the last letter does.

The EMP is 1 deg taper L1 79.15 mm and root dia of 2.735 mm The NCVT is close, like DR Steve says.

Before I put the carb back together, I took a few random measurements with the calipers and put the following together:



Only 1/100s and not 1/1000 mm and not too accurate either, but indicative. The root diameter of the NCVT is 0.05 thicker than the EMP and this is what DR Steve (DRS) was looking for. L1 on the NCVT is definitely less than the EMP's 79.15 mm but my measurements aren't good enough to know exactly where, yet.

I should have looked at a the needle specs before putting the carb back together so I could have taken some better measurements. I expect to be moving the needle anyway, so its coming........

What can be seen is the root diameter sequence that is in DRS's table, the NCYS being 2.765 and my measurement of the NCVT at 2.78. And of course its consistent with the last letter in the code that you posted, but only the last letter. Confused?

Remember, thicker means less fuel, so leaner.

I'll see how the bum testing goes, and maybe I can feel a dyno session coming on in 2013.

[BergDonk]

Originally Posted by DR Steve

The problem I found with the single taper needles was an E taper is too much, while a D is not enough. So you use an E (EMP) and end up either too lean at 1/4 or too rich at 3/4. If you use a clip position to give good mixtures at 1/2-3/4, you will be way too lean at 1/4. I tried an EMT which is good at 1/8, way too lean at 1/4 and a bit rich at 3/4. those needles are just the wrong shape. The JD needles have a dual taper very similar to the Honda needles. Experiments with the JD red was what led me to trying the Honda needles.
This graph shows the affect of that early extra taper.

The needles are basically the same, apart from the second early taper indicated by the blue line. This fixes all the above mentioned issues.

It's the throttle position that gets used most frequently on the DR if it's being adventure ridden.

Cheers,
Steve

Thanks for this. We have the same issue with the D and E needles in the Bergs.

I'm running a Lineaweaver dual taper D/E in my FE650, and after fine tuning on the dyno, its still my absolute benchmark for fueling, Better than anything I've ridden or driven.

About 1/3 down here its referred to:
http://www.husaberg.org/wiki/index.p...le=Carburation

And handmade here:
http://lineaweaverracing.com/

Dale is also the guy that put me onto the Delo 400, but of course that's another story.

Carl at Cafe Racer did the Berg and may well be doing the DR now too:
http://www.caferacer.com.au/

As I've said all along, I've been happy enough with how its been, and with my consumption being on average 5% worse than totally stock bikes on the same rides, not too far out. BUT, when I pull the plugs, its a bit sootier than I'd prefer, and that's from 1/4 throttle, and consistent with what DRS has found. For those that haven't been there, DRS has posted up his story here:
http://drriders.com/topic3733.html

What I did find especially interesting was Phreaky Phil's post at the bottom of page 7 in the above link, and repeated here:

Originally Posted by Phreaky Phil

No it's not to do with the different fuels as mine was rich in NZ so I leaned it out. When I headed over for the TAT I put it back to MXrob specs.when I got to the US it was way to rich again and eventually leaned it out to my NZ jetting which ran fine from sea level to 13000 ft.
I believe it may just be the difference between the bikes and carbs and each bike needs jetting to suit. Mxrobs jetting is a good base to start the fine tuning from. My DR has air box mod, GSXR, header grind and FCR.

What's it all mean, is the answer 42? Dunno yet.

Here's a few more links for anyone browsing and with time to kill that may interest:

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/tech_...Burns,Pat.html

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=fc...w=1476&bih=853

http://www.thumperfaq.com/jetting.htm

http://www.showandgo.com.au/carbie/t...html~mainFrame

http://www.pbase.com/jdjetting1/image/108687116

Lunch time.....

[BergDonk]

Here's a couple more pics that should/could have been in posts above FWIW.



A small amount of carbon dust from the brushes when the end cap is pulled off.




Some accumulated detritus under the starter including a piece of mirror!




The CCT awaiting some sealant before reinsertion. Note the plunger is compressed.

[Bushmechanic]

Hey Steve!

I like Dales berg needle too

FWIW i did try an NKBT that came in a carb I bought on ebay, it has similar dimensions to dales needle but starts fatter at 2.76mm, while the tip is slightly smaller. if you wanted to cross a DVT with an EKR the NKBT is close. in short it sucked

nice write up on the valves I'm sending a link to my mate he can do his own now i reckon

Happy new year

cheers
Bushie

[BergDonk]

Originally Posted by Bushmechanic

Hey Steve!

I like Dales berg needle too

FWIW i did try an NKBT that came in a carb I bought on ebay, it has similar dimensions to dales needle but starts fatter at 2.76mm, while the tip is slightly smaller. if you wanted to cross a DVT with an EKR the NKBT is close. in short it sucked

nice write up on the valves I'm sending a link to my mate he can do his own now i reckon

Happy new year

cheers
Bushie

Cheers Bushie. So many needles, so little time................