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Old 01-13-2014, 03:32 PM   #241
mookymoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
If you have a big pocketbook, the EarthX ETX36C is the biggest size that will still drop into the 990 OEM battery box and that would definitely kick this beast over at any temp.
Any comments/opinions on the reliability/failure-point of the BMS?
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Old 01-13-2014, 03:55 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mookymoo View Post
Any comments/opinions on the reliability/failure-point of the BMS?
EarthX has the best BMS for motorcycle LiFePO4 that I'm aware of. extremely rugged to handle 300+ amps .. uses MOSFETs to actually disconnect mains for over/under voltage protection.

almost one year into a long term test for EarthX ETX36 with zero problems including starting down below 20f with R80G/S. which has much higher starting requirements than any modern fuel injected bike like LC8.

AntiGravity chooses not to use any BMS .. advantage no additional failure point. disadvantage .. no on the fly cell balancing.

Shorai doesn't publish spec's on BMS if any ... Shorai do provide external balance ports. almost two years into long term tests on LFX36 with zero problems. too bad LFX36 is too big for LC8.

IMHO currently the best LiFePO4 for LC8 is EarthX ETX36 .. which fits right into 990adv battery tray.

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-13-2014 at 04:05 PM
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:01 PM   #243
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I'll post some positive news wrt Shorai-- 3rd winter (New Jersey) and after a week of temps that were in single digits we had a couple days where it reached near 50. The Shorai worked fine after 6 weeks in the garage and not being on a tender. So still no complaints.


I was tempted to go out & attempt starting it during the cold spell- but it was too cold for indulging in such behavior
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Old 01-14-2014, 10:40 AM   #244
CamelBill
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Shorai

FWIW, I have had a Shorai 18LFX in my 950 for about a year and a half, and I bought the battery used at the time. It has never been on a tender , and has always started my bike, even after sitting for a month or more at times unused. I do turn on the aux lights for 30 seconds or so as I push it out of the garage prior to starting, just to warm it up. Not sure if necessary or not, I just do it based upon what I have read.

It has ALWAYS stared the bike with authority, with no sign of weakness whatsoever. Just my experience, your results may vary.

Cheers, enjoy the ride
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:08 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by camelbill View Post
fwiw, i have had a shorai 18lfx in my 950 for about a year and a half, and i bought the battery used at the time. It has never been on a tender , and has always started my bike, even after sitting for a month or more at times unused. I do turn on the aux lights for 30 seconds or so as i push it out of the garage prior to starting, just to warm it up. Not sure if necessary or not, i just do it based upon what i have read.

It has always stared the bike with authority, with no sign of weakness whatsoever. Just my experience, your results may vary.

Cheers, enjoy the ride
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:19 AM   #246
Yascher
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990 base old Yausa back in for winter riding, Shorai for the summer
Smaller Aprilia twins are having the same issues with LiPos in winter....but as racing goes, there you do need a light ones in summer, 990-not really the key feature to this bike

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
Folks, I posted this thread in 2011 when Shorai was just about the only game in town for well packaged lightweight lithium based batteries. Most other options then were 123 packs in shrink-wrapped bundles and I tried a few of those with not good results, poor quality control.

The Shorai LFX18 was the biggest Shorai "AH" size that fit in the 990 OEM battery box and that was frustrating because while it starts the bike fine over 50F you have to get into tedious and marginally successful "warm up" cycles to get the battery warm enough to start the bike when it's really cold. That's hard on the starter and electrics of the bike, with the sagging voltage and all.

I've worked with Shorai since they started and they treated me well, upgrading me through a few newer versions. Unfortunately they just don't make a battery currently that I know of that will fit in the OEM battery box and reliably start the 990 in the low 40's, and worse below freezing, which yes, I do ride in. I ride all year in the Seattle area.

My 'theory' is that Lithium Amp Hour ratings don't mean much when it starts to get cold. My only thought, since I have jumped onto the Lithium battery bandwagon like a typical OCD engineer that I am, was to simply find a larger size Lithium that will still fit my OEM 990 battery box without any ridiculous modding.

My solution after looking at the new options in late 2012 (and after looking at the battery threads on ADV and elsewhere) was EarthX. They have a built-in battery charging BMS to keep the cells properly topped off with a single-source charging supply like the bikes charging system. That's the environment the battery has to live in, and not require some special external charger, to be a true drop-in replacement..

I contacted EarthX and their ETXxxC size case fits the 990 OEM battery box just like the OEM Yuasa, no spacers needed. Perfect!

EarthX claimed, like Shorai, that the ETX18C would be more than adequate for my 990. I said it wouldn't be, but they wanted me to test it. Once again I tested it at the colder temps with all-night cold soaks in my unheated garage and outside all day at work, in the Winter. The EarthX was a bit better than the Shorai but not by much. It was undersized for the application I needed which is ALL YEAR RIDING even when it gets below freezing, not just fair-weather Starbucks riding.

I let EarthX know my findings and they upgraded me to the ETX24C. That battery has been great even down to 25F this winter. Around 20F it gets a little marginal, but it rarely gets that cold in Seattle so the ETX24C gets my thumbs up and I've been running with it for a year of daily commutes even into our unusually cold Winter this year, with no problems.

If you have a big pocketbook, the EarthX ETX36C is the biggest size that will still drop into the 990 OEM battery box and that would definitely kick this beast over at any temp.

I have a 2011 Husaberg 390 with a 14Ah Shorai in it (before I knew about EarthX) and it has functioned perfectly even down to 15F, and contunues to do so. 14Ah, whatever that fuzzy number means, was plenty to kick over the 390cc thumper easily and it continues to work well, so I'm not changing it. If it dies, I may very well consider an EarthX for it due to my good experiences with that product.

I have a few of the LFX18A1-BS12's sitting on my workbench not doing much, but I keep them charged and handy for booster/backup batteries if I ever need them. They do hold a charge for a long time like all lithiums, so I rarely have to top them off.

If Shorai would actually put enough boost in the LFX18A1-BS12 case (there's lots of empty air space even in their smaller case) it would no doubt work as well as the EarthX 24Ah (fuzzy number) but economically I doubt they would want to do that, plus the built-in (charging-only) BMS and perfect physical fit of the EarthX edges it out over the Shorai, for me.

These days you have LOTS more lithium batt options, and they all crow about being the best. These are the two brands I've tried and there you have it.

If I could lock this thread I would, but I'm not a mod. The LFX18A1-BS12 is not up to the job for what I needed, but again when I started this thread I did not know that and presented my install it as-is.

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Old 01-14-2014, 11:22 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamelBill View Post
FWIW, I have had a Shorai 18LFX in my 950 for about a year and a half, and I bought the battery used at the time. It has never been on a tender , and has always started my bike, even after sitting for a month or more at times unused. I do turn on the aux lights for 30 seconds or so as I push it out of the garage prior to starting, just to warm it up. Not sure if necessary or not, I just do it based upon what I have read.

It has ALWAYS stared the bike with authority, with no sign of weakness whatsoever. Just my experience, your results may vary.

Cheers, enjoy the ride
more information please ... what is the average and coldest temps you started 950 at?
which Shorai LFX18? there are different models that use that label. starting to think Shorai purposely made it confusing as possible so consumer cannot tell actual AH.

please note it's very_important to know your battery's voltage when putting away for the night. when using a tiny 5AH actual battery with a 1,000cc class bike. it's critical battery be close to full charge when putting away.

measure your voltage at battery when putting away and before starting next morning. ideal voltage is 13.3v (90%) range.
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:23 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
more info please .. what model Shorai failed twice on your LC8?
I will check the box tonight. I don't remember off-hand.
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Old 01-14-2014, 05:10 PM   #249
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OK so an update - I have 3 possibly junk Shorais (LFX36 on an old Guzzi, LFX7 on mini bikes, and LFX12 on a Husaberg) - also have their charger. All bought within the last year. All have seen minimal use. Based on people saying they have good service, I gave them a call. Helpful guy on the other end. Measured voltages on all - 11.5, 12.5 and 9.9. He said to attempt charging one more time. He explained what the various number of beeps and LEDs mean on the charger (this isn't explained on the charger very well at all). The one with 12.5V, the LFX12, won't crank any bike I put it on. He said that's bad, probably junk. Anyways, he said if they don't charge up and work fine, send them in, and they will replace free or even upsize for nominal (like $15) fee (they suggest the 14 for the Berg and the 14 case is actually smaller than the 12 I have). Didn't ask for receipt or anything like that yet (which I'd have to go back to the dealer and get copies of, so hopefully we don't have to play that game). So hey, that's great if they come through. We will see. Perhaps they are having enough issues that they decided to handle it the right way and salvage their name.

Will update later.
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:47 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by ridetheblock View Post
OK so an update - I have 3 possibly junk Shorais (LFX36 on an old Guzzi, LFX7 on mini bikes, and LFX12 on a Husaberg) - also have their charger. All bought within the last year. All have seen minimal use. Based on people saying they have good service, I gave them a call. Helpful guy on the other end. Measured voltages on all - 11.5, 12.5 and 9.9. He said to attempt charging one more time. He explained what the various number of beeps and LEDs mean on the charger (this isn't explained on the charger very well at all). The one with 12.5V, the LFX12, won't crank any bike I put it on. He said that's bad, probably junk. Anyways, he said if they don't charge up and work fine, send them in, and they will replace free or even upsize for nominal (like $15) fee (they suggest the 14 for the Berg and the 14 case is actually smaller than the 12 I have). Didn't ask for receipt or anything like that yet (which I'd have to go back to the dealer and get copies of, so hopefully we don't have to play that game). So hey, that's great if they come through. We will see. Perhaps they are having enough issues that they decided to handle it the right way and salvage their name.

Will update later.
all the voltages you've posted indicate over discharge which is considered operator error. it's common for bikes to have a small parasitic drain. any battery can be killed by parasitic drain.

Shorai LFX36 is a 14AH actual battery with plenty of reserve capacity for your Guzzi. what's the charging voltage of Guzzi at 3k rpm and same for other two bikes?

your LFX07 is a tiny actual AH battery. LFX12 weight 1.5lb or about 4AH which would marginal for any bike with starter.

_cy_ screwed with this post 01-14-2014 at 07:56 PM
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:27 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
more information please ... what is the average and coldest temps you started 950 at?
which Shorai LFX18? there are different models that use that label. starting to think Shorai purposely made it confusing as possible so consumer cannot tell actual AH.

please note it's very_important to know your battery's voltage when putting away for the night. when using a tiny 5AH actual battery with a 1,000cc class bike. it's critical battery be close to full charge when putting away.

measure your voltage at battery when putting away and before starting next morning. ideal voltage is 13.3v (90%) range.
My garage is insulated, so it rarely gets below 45 degrees F. I have started the bike in well below freezing temps, but it came out of the 45 degree garage. When I ride the bike, it is generally for at least an hour, most often 4 plus hours, so it is getting a good charge every time. I also have a Datel voltmeter installed on the bike, so I keep an eye on voltage. I have replaced the regulator a couple years back, and I know my bike's charging system is good.

I have it torn down a bit in the basement currently for a valve check, but I'll start paying more attention to voltage when I park the bike after riding, and before I start it once I get it back together and the riding season allows more frequent rides.
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Old 01-15-2014, 11:23 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
more info please .. what model Shorai failed twice on your LC8?
First battery purchased was LFX18A1-BS12 in September 2011. It was replaced in February 2012. I was told at the time it had a bad cell.

Replacement battery was the same but I was told "has newer chemistry". That failed during the heat in august 2012 while I was on a trip heading to Lake Champlain NY. I had to get the bike towed almost 100 miles to a shop that luckily had an AGM battery that I threw in the bike and was on my way again. I know there are plenty of people who have had good luck with these Lithium batteries, but i am not one of them. I have had issues form the cold and in the heat. I have not had a single issue with the Yuasa and other AGM batteries I have used.

Someone here asked for experiences, I am just giving mine. Seems like quite a few others have not had any issues with these batteries, and to them I say congratulations.
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:01 AM   #253
crash n bern
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Well for my 2 cents. the Shorai I bought for my SE950 died within 8 or so months in a warm climate. The one I bought for my 650 Husaberg is going strong. I went back to a GSM for the 950. At least if it dies I can jump start it and it will run for the day and hold enough for a start and get me home.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:19 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by CamelBill View Post
My garage is insulated, so it rarely gets below 45 degrees F. I have started the bike in well below freezing temps, but it came out of the 45 degree garage. When I ride the bike, it is generally for at least an hour, most often 4 plus hours, so it is getting a good charge every time. I also have a Datel voltmeter installed on the bike, so I keep an eye on voltage. I have replaced the regulator a couple years back, and I know my bike's charging system is good.

I have it torn down a bit in the basement currently for a valve check, but I'll start paying more attention to voltage when I park the bike after riding, and before I start it once I get it back together and the riding season allows more frequent rides.
above goes a long ways in explaining reduced starting requirements for your 990 .. 45f is considered moderate temps. taking your bike outside from 45f to freezing means your bike started out fairly warm.

having a voltage meter on your bike goes a long ways in keeping track of charging voltages. especially since LC8 along with BMW F8 has a history R/R problems with recommended upgrade to MOSFET R/R.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:23 AM   #255
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Well for my 2 cents. the Shorai I bought for my SE950 died within 8 or so months in a warm climate. The one I bought for my 650 Husaberg is going strong. I went back to a GSM for the 950. At least if it dies I can jump start it and it will run for the day and hold enough for a start and get me home.
assuming you've checked to verify charging system is working .. which is a good thing with LC8's history of R/R issues.

generally if LiFePO4 failed during warm weather with charging system, starter/relay, cables, parasitic drain, etc verified good. sorry you got a dud one ...
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