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Old 01-28-2011, 07:15 AM   #46
TAMPAJIM
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Has anybody considered deliberate sabotage?
Like some lowlife dumping sand, cola, etc. into the oil?

Or the oil from the other dealer could have been somehow contaminated if it came from a common tank and not directly from the plastic containers.
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Old 01-28-2011, 05:26 PM   #47
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Wow I've learned so much from this thread.

Thanks for all the input. ADV is such an awesome rider community.

Sadly at this point we are at the mercy of what BMW Germany think the cause/reason is for the failures and what they plan to do about it.

-Naomi
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:11 AM   #48
betitolara OP
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Pissed

The dealer says that BMW Germany has concluded that the failure was caused by 'low-octane fuel'. Surprisingly, BMW Germany knows nothing about a 'fuel remapping' option that BMW in Canada offers to be able to use 87 octane gasoline on the F800GS.

This is all so messed up. Our engines were pretty much breaking down ever since we left Canada b/c we were using 87 to 90 octane gas (lower than the recommended 91 octane fuel) and after ~24,000kms the failure was evident with broken piston heads, etc.

I anyways got an approximate quote for the repairs and the cost is approximately US$ 2,500 per bike

We'll be talking to the BMW dealer in Victoria, Canada about the 87 octane re-mapping they supposedly did to our bikes (which interestingly enough the Peru dealer doesn't have the option to do and as I mentioned above, apparently BMW in Germany does no know about)

I'll post pictures of the failed engine parts tomorrow.

On Monday we will finally know if this is covered under warranty or not. I have a bad feeling about all this. Good times.... good times...
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:56 AM   #49
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I certainly hope this situation isn't going to be resolved by BMW the way I think it's going to be handled.

The F800GS is terribly close to falling off my short list of next bike purchase at this rate.

Can't wait to see more detailed pictures of the piston. Curious to see exactly why they say "bad fuel".
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Old 01-29-2011, 04:37 AM   #50
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Only thing I can come up with is heavily contaminated oil, or heavily contaminated fuel.
And for the fuel contamination I am thinking about a mixture of petrol and diesel. If you would have stopped at some obscure gasstation that mixes it's petrol with diesel, you'll have similar damage as you guys have.

I wish you all the best as I can imagine how you must feel.
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Old 01-29-2011, 04:51 AM   #51
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No matter what happens tomorrow, just realize that what you have accomplished so far is significant. BC to Peru is no joke. Most bikes I've owned would have had some issue or another making a trip like that. As far as a possible month in Lima...Many would pay a good price for an opportunity like that.
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:16 PM   #52
betitolara OP
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More photos

Here are some pictures I brought my nice camera with me yesterday.

According to BMW Germany the cylinders are fine and don't need to be replaced. Don't have any pictures.



Alberto's Piston#1


Alberto's Piston#1


Alberto's Piston#1


Alberto's Piston#1


Alberto's Piston#1


Alberto's Piston#2


Alberto's Piston#2


Alberto's Piston#2


Alberto's Piston#2


Naomi's Piston#1


Naomi's Piston#1


Naomi's Piston#1


Naomi's Piston#1


Naomi's Piston#2


Naomi's Piston#2


Naomi's Piston#2


Naomi's Piston#2


Naomi's Piston#2


Naomi's Piston#2
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:35 PM   #53
betitolara OP
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Bluhduh some backgroung info on fue mapping

I was digging out some old emails between me and the BMW dealer in Canada (whom we bought the bikes from) and I found an email from them saying:

The octane rating can be a little confusing.

There are two world wide standards, "research" and "motor" octane.

BMW uses the research rating.

The americans thought they would create a third standard to confuse people so invented the "pump" octane rating which is the average of the other two. This is what is on the gas station pumps "(R + M)/2 method". Sometimes it is listed as the AKI rating.

As a rule of thumb you can subtract 4 from the research number and you will get the approx. pump rating. So if BMW says 91 that means 87 pump octane, and if BMW says 94 that's 91 at the pump.

The F800GS comes set up from the factory to use 91, pump octane. If you wish we can set it to use the 87, pump octane, engine mapping. You will lose a little power and range but it will be much happier on low octane fuel.

This setting is not user selectable only dealer changeable.

This is from the BMW brochure for the F800GS in Canada (you can find it HERE on page #6):

91-OCTANE FUEL MAPPING
This no-cost option allows the bike
to run on lower-grade fuel useful when
exploring remoter corners of the planet.


I find that last bit a bit too ironic now .......
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:42 PM   #54
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I would get a second opinion about the cause of failure on your piston's. Bearing in mind BMW's opinion is the only one that actually matters here.

I don't understand how detonation could damage/ break the ring lands, yet not do any harm whatsoever to the piston crown itself.

Your piston rings are clearly not broken it is the piston's themselves. The only question is how the rings actually survived. Impressive. Lubrication is not the problem, the first place this will show is on the piston skirt, and your rod bearings which appear to have normal wear btw.

In my professional diesel mechanic's opinion, it honestly appears like the piston's themselves are at fault.

If any motorcycle mechanics have seen a failure like this before please post and explain how bad fuel could cause this.

I am very curious what BMW's rationale is behind this failure.
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:46 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betitolara View Post
I find that last bit a bit too ironic now .......
That sucks big time, the whole octane thing is very confusing but inmates have been running the 1200GS with regular fuel (up here) without ill effects. DesertStorm's post above makes sense.. you just never know what kind of fuel you're getting down there.. I hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertStrom View Post
Only thing I can come up with is heavily contaminated oil, or heavily contaminated fuel.
And for the fuel contamination I am thinking about a mixture of petrol and diesel. If you would have stopped at some obscure gasstation that mixes it's petrol with diesel, you'll have similar damage as you guys have.

I wish you all the best as I can imagine how you must feel.
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Old 01-29-2011, 01:17 PM   #56
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http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html


Here's a fairly well explained yet simple enough description.

I'm curious now though, did the dealer actually perform the remap, or did it get overlooked somehow?

(I've actually been considering geting mine remapped, just to help combat the rising fuel costs...)
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Old 01-29-2011, 02:56 PM   #57
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There you go. The first thing it says is broken ring lands.

Learned something new today thanks.

Unfortunately doesn't help these guys out though.
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Old 01-29-2011, 03:18 PM   #58
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It is starting to look like it was the fuel. I really thought there was too much coincidence to be an identical manufacturing problem.

I suppose the next big question is whether the dealer really did do the remapping (or just thought they did!).

If you get into an argument with BMW I'd remind them of two things ... the world is watching (literally ) and that it would probably have been a good idea to fit the 800 engine with a knock sensor like the 1200's.

Good luck!
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Old 01-29-2011, 06:07 PM   #59
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Wow... those pictures are neat... looks like there is evidence to support BMW's conclusion and some of out inmate's speculations. There could be a good bit of detonation occurring due to poor fuel...

As much as I hate jumping to conclusions there are several factors pointing to fuel being the cause and sabotage being likely as well. I'm sure both of you fueled at every station together and who knows what quality fuel was provided?

This being said, I'm not an engine expert so I will just sit back and observe


One more observation. I enjoyed your pictures of the connecting rod cracks but I'm not sure of the relevance. The rods are cracked on purpose to produce a bond at the molecular level when they are assembled in the engine, wonderful stuff IMO!
EDIT: Looking back I see there are some score marks in the race in those pictures, wonder where those come from... hmmmm
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Old 01-29-2011, 07:32 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by EnderTheX View Post
... One more observation. I enjoyed your pictures of the connecting rod cracks but I'm not sure of the relevance. The rods are cracked on purpose to produce a bond at the molecular level when they are assembled in the engine, wonderful stuff IMO!
EDIT: Looking back I see there are some score marks in the race in those pictures, wonder where those come from... hmmmm
+1 I was just about to comment on that...

"Cracked Bearings" were patented by none other than Ford in the early 1990s... very clever stuff!

http://www.allbusiness.com/professio.../155655-1.html
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