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Old 01-29-2011, 06:57 AM   #16
AZ-Twin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snooker View Post
I'm very interested! Unfortunately I know little about EFI motors (other than I loved slipping on a Leo Vince and a UNI air filter and running it in any elevation from 0 ft to 13,000 ft without a whimper).

I know there is plenty to read and learn but haven't taken the time, but...

Would anybody be willing to provide a basic comparison of what the PC solution (with a map from somebody else) will do, compared to what you will get from either a BoosterPlug or an Accelerator (a French rider showed me this). I'm sure they are like apples and oranges but dunno really...

I don't really want to experiment, just plug in a solution. How much do you estimate the PC will cost? and how do you estimate it will affect the gas mileage for off road lower gears or for highway cruising?

thanks, -matt

Matt,

I know a bit about EFI but I am not an expert, but here it goes.

Things like the booster plug, accelerator, FRK spoof the reading the ECU gets from the air temp sensor. The computer then thinks the air is colder than it actually is, and chooses a different map, a richer map. So the mixture is still based off a map programed in the ECU.

The power commander plugs in in series with the injector, taps into the crank sensor, and attaches to the Throttle Position Sensor (i can't see that connection and have not pulled off the right side body panel yet). It actually modifies the mixture based on the way it is programmed, but I am not sure if it triggers the injector based off the ECU input to the injector, or just totally ignores the ECU input to the injector and fires the injector only based on the PCV configuration.

Power Commander does require the O2 sensor to be disconnected. Normally the O2 sensor is only used during closed loop operation so for dual sport riding this should not be a big deal.

I do wonder if my bike will still properly adjust for altitude with the PCV. It was dynoed in Vegas which is at 2000ft, I live at ~5000ft elevation.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:28 AM   #17
snooker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ-Twin View Post
Matt,

I know a bit about EFI but I am not an expert, but here it goes.

Things like the booster plug, accelerator, FRK spoof the reading the ECU gets from the air temp sensor. The computer then thinks the air is colder than it actually is, and chooses a different map, a richer map. So the mixture is still based off a map programed in the ECU.

The power commander plugs in in series with the injector, taps into the crank sensor, and attaches to the Throttle Position Sensor (i can't see that connection and have not pulled off the right side body panel yet). It actually modifies the mixture based on the way it is programmed, but I am not sure if it triggers the injector based off the ECU input to the injector, or just totally ignores the ECU input to the injector and fires the injector only based on the PCV configuration.

Power Commander does require the O2 sensor to be disconnected. Normally the O2 sensor is only used during closed loop operation so for dual sport riding this should not be a big deal.

I do wonder if my bike will still properly adjust for altitude with the PCV. It was dynoed in Vegas which is at 2000ft, I live at ~5000ft elevation.
Thanks Rob for that, it helps a lot. I'm still confused as to what part of the OEM ECU the PCV is replacing or modifying or ??
I mean since the PCV is directly controlling the injectors now - does the PCV replace only the OEM map portion of the ECU or what all does it do? I have not read the PC website so that's my bad, would that help?

Ok somebody stop me if I'm off post but... from reading the BoosterPlug knowlege info it seems the O2 sensor (or Lambda sensor) checks the tailpipe exhaust gases and if used then is the definition of "closed loop operation" right?
What I mean to ask is this: If our bike has a Lambda sensor connected to the ECU then it is *always* in closed loop mode on a stock setup, is that right? What is closed loop mode for and how does it affect our dual sport riding usage (pros/cons)?

Basically, what do you mean when you say that disconnecting the Lambda sensor "is not a big deal for dual sport riding"? I'm not arguing just learning here - is this just an emissions control thing and makes perfomance worse or what?

I was also wondering about the PCV mapping and altitude, or would the air pressure sensor take care of that and it will work fine since they dyno'd it with the air pressure sensor being used?
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:30 AM   #18
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[QUOTE]I do wonder if my bike will still properly adjust for altitude with the PCV. It was dynoed in Vegas which is at 2000ft, I live at ~5000ft elevation./QUOTE]

What results did the dyno show for HP & torque?
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:46 AM   #19
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I have read this thread very closely, but the sensor to be disconnected
I think not a good idea.
I've tried everything with my PC to my Xch and any change
tested on the dyno.
In my experience I would not go without the sensor.

And if you like to drive without the sensor, use the PC III F650/2004
plug and play by the Xch.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:31 PM   #20
AZ-Twin
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Snooker.

I am going to send an email to dynojet with the link to this thread and ask them to either post why the O2 sensor should not be connected, or ask them to email me something to post. I don't know enough about EFI on this bike to post anything with 100% accuracy.

I did take the bike out for a ride today and I really like how it performs now.

The changes that have been made to my bike are as follows.

Before I had a stock can, foam filter, stock air box. stock ECU, and counter shaft sprocket minus 1 tooth.

Now I have the inner cover removed off the air box, the LV slipon, the same foam filter, PCV programmed by Dyno Jet, and still the counter shaft sprocket minus 1 tooth.

The bike seems to have a lot more pull than before. If I accelerate hard I seem to go through the gears a lot faster. When riding in 3rd or 4th gear today where I would have downshifted before, now I just roll on the throttle a bit and the bike goes. I don't really know how else to describe it.

I was going down a nice smooth dirt road in 4th at about 50 and whacked the throttle and the back end started dancing. I could definitely grind my D908 off in no time.

While the bike was not lacking in power before, it seems to have more now. I don't know if this is all due to the PC, as I changed other stuff at the same time. But I really like how it runs now.

As far as the dyno charts go, I have not gotten them from Dyno Jet yet. I did see the before/after graphs and I think I had a 3 or 4 hp gain, but that was peak and I didn't study them to see what the performance difference was across the board.

Again, I will try to get some input from Dnyo Jet for this thread.

I am happy with how he bike runs now. My fuel light did come on at 97 miles which is a lot sooner than usual, but I was riding the bike pretty hard today, so that might account for that. I will post what mileage I get in the future.
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I'm not real fast, but I do have a dog named Dakar!
97 M900, 07 G650 XChallenge,11 KTM 990 ADV R
2011 North up the CDR
Sierra Vista AZ to Paonia CO and Back through Moab UT

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Old 01-30-2011, 04:55 PM   #21
AZ-Twin
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I just reviewed a couple install guides at dynojet.com, and they all say to leave the O2 sensor disconnected.

G450X install guide here.

http://www.powercommander.com/downlo.../eng12-005.pdf






.
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Rob Swartzwelder, Southern AZ
I'm not real fast, but I do have a dog named Dakar!
97 M900, 07 G650 XChallenge,11 KTM 990 ADV R
2011 North up the CDR
Sierra Vista AZ to Paonia CO and Back through Moab UT

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Old 01-31-2011, 12:52 AM   #22
FinnDuro OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ-Twin View Post
While the bike was not lacking in power before, it seems to have more now. I don't know if this is all due to the PC, as I changed other stuff at the same time. But I really like how it runs now.
...
Again, I will try to get some input from Dnyo Jet for this thread.
Good input there AZ-Twin, thanks!
I too think it a good idea to get more info from Dynojet as per O2 disconnection, not a PowerCommander expert myself, either.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:12 AM   #23
HP2
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To 4000 U / min, the oxygen sensor is a very good part for the exhaust emissions.
The engine runs smoother to 4000 with the sensor, It makes no difference
mountain or valley.
You see the correct work on the Lambda-meter. btw.0,85-0,95-1,0
Over 4,000 rpm ignored the electronics (Hella ECU) the sensor so or so.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:46 AM   #24
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Hello Everyone. First a big thanks to AZ-Twin for lending us his bike. Very difficult for us to get BMW models around here.

Hopefully to answer some of your questions:

The PCV is an in-line device that intercepts the signal from the ECU to the injectors. This means that any sensors that are on the bike are still trimming the base map in the ECU to compensate for weather, altitude, bike changes. For example. Lets say that the base map in the ECU outputs an injector signal of 10ms at 4000rpm and 20% throttle. If there is a 0 in the PCV map at this same point the injector is still outputting 10ms. If we have a value of 10 in the PCV map then the injector is outputting 11ms. Now lets say we ride up to to 5000ft in altitude and the base map of the ECU now says to output 8ms. With a 10 in the PCV map it will now output 8.8ms.

The O2 sensor is only active in the closed loop range. On the G650X this range is as high as 80% throttle. If you leave the stock O2 sensor connected, no matter what you do with the PCV in the closed range the stock sensor will override it and keep the AFR at around 14.7:1. On past BMW models they have used a BARO sensor on the bike to help compensate for altitude. Unfortunately I don't have the info on whether the G650X also uses a BARO sensor but I believe it does.

When you disconnect the O2 sensor the ECU goes into a set BASE map and no longer tries to use this reading to alter the AFR. This is what allows us to map with the PCV. If compensating for weather, altitude is of concern then the Auto tune that we offer would be the ticket. This unit looks at a supplied Wide Band Sensor and will constantly keep the AFR at your set Target Values.

I hope this answers some of your questions. If you have more just let us know. Thanks.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:26 AM   #25
AZ-Twin
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Thanks for posting DynoJet. You have answered all the questions I put in the email. And the bike runs great!


According to my BMW Maintenance DVD our bikes ECU is the BMS C II. A quick google search revealed this link with info about the BMS C II. It does state that there is a pressure sensor or BARO sensor.

http://faq.f650.com/GSFAQs/FuelInjectionFAQ.htm#BMS-C2

I have not read all this yet, and am not endorsing it, but thought I would share it.

I will look it over this afternoon.
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I'm not real fast, but I do have a dog named Dakar!
97 M900, 07 G650 XChallenge,11 KTM 990 ADV R
2011 North up the CDR
Sierra Vista AZ to Paonia CO and Back through Moab UT


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Old 01-31-2011, 04:58 PM   #26
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Any idea if the rev limiter is changed with the PC? I have always thought that the bike is still pulling hard when it hits the limiter.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:42 PM   #27
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In case you're wondering, where DynojetResearch says "AFR" above that's air-to-fuel ratio. I've heard that most modern EFI bikes run in the 14:1 to 15:1 range (lean) and should run optimally closer to the 12:1 or 13:1 range. The PC map (where a value of 10 means 10% more fuel and -10 means 10% less) usually has settings for about 10 different throttle positions from 2% throttle to WOT, then also for each of those throttle positions at RPM levels from idle to redline at 250 RPM intervals. So you end up with 200 or more individual settings!

These settings are called a "map" -- it's a computer file and can be swapped around by e-mail. Using Dynojet's PC app (unfortunately, they only have a Windows compatible version, the Luddites) you can then tweak the map any way you like, save it under a new name, and upload it to your bike. After trying it out, you can continue to tweak it until you get it to where you want it, save it, share it, whatever.

One other bit of explanation. Why do they call it a PCV? First they came out with the Power Commander. Then the Power Commander II. Then the PC-III. Now we're up to the V.

Also you should know that thanks to the State of Kalifornia air-quality control legal team, your PC is approved for race-use only! Disconnect it for street use!
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:39 PM   #28
snooker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DynojetResearch View Post
... On past BMW models they have used a BARO sensor on the bike to help compensate for altitude. Unfortunately I don't have the info on whether the G650X also uses a BARO sensor but I believe it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DynojetResearch View Post
... If compensating for weather, altitude is of concern then the Auto tune that we offer would be the ticket. This unit looks at a supplied Wide Band Sensor and will constantly keep the AFR at your set Target Values.
I assume a BARO sensor is a barometric (aka air pressure) sensor that would be used to correct for weather and altitude.

2 questions:

Are you saying:
1)... that if the G650X ECU in fact DOES have a BARO sensor then this will be compensated for, with or without the PCV also added? (assuming the Lambda sensor is disconnected)

2)... that adding your Auto Tune product with its Wide Band Sensor would only be needed if the G650X ECU in fact does NOT have a BARO sensor?
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:03 AM   #29
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What flat spot?

Are you a CX rider?
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:28 AM   #30
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What flat spot?

Are you a CX rider?
I downsized from a R1200GS to a 2008 G650X Country. I can short shift it and ride the torque, or rev it out and ride the horsepower. But if I short shift the first couple of gears, then wind it out, there is what I call a flat spot, or a decrease in pull, between the 2 ranges. Probably right where you see the dip on the rising side of the torque curve on published dyno charts.

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