What is Harley doing?

[KradmelderSA]

Originally Posted by AZbiker

Funny, the only 2 bikes that have ever had to go home on trailers during a ride I was on were an old Yamaha Fazer with almost 100k (blew out the countershaft bearing, oil everywhere) and a GS with only 40,000 miles (FD failure, imagine that).

The KTM Adventure has one of the most asinine oil changes in motorcycling--no thanks. That's one of the things I bitterly hate about my Concours and the KTM's worse. Ease-of-service is a pretty big deal to me, and a sign of a well-designed product.

Tell me--are some of the KTM dealers still not servicing the big twins? When H-D came out with the V-Rod, they didn't give their dealers a choice. Any KTM dealer that does not work on the twins should lose their franchise.

Ja, KTM is a very labour intensive bike for servicing. The KTM dealers I know service twins. But most of their dealers are multi-line, with ducati, aprilia etc.

Picking on individual bikes doesnt prove anything. Look how many GSs get 300 000 - 400 000 km on them. What other bike will do that? You can pick any brand and you will find a bike that has broken down.

Another problem with KTM is the battery is at the bottom, not under the seat. You can say its bad design but Its designed for optimal weight distribution and off road performance, not ease of service. Its also sensitive to fuel quality. Depends what you look for in a bike. For serious off road, KTM is the bee's knees and its balancing and suspension are tops. For commuting, long didstance tar touring, many other bikes are better.

But the harley, why would anyone want an underpowered, loud, vibrating, heavy bike? No one does. But they want the harley looks and image or sound. That is the one thing Harley is King at: selling an image and lifestyle. The down side of that is that they will battle to sell a bike that doesnt fit the image people want. Harley marketting know exactly what they are doing. They have made the image self perpetuating. No need even for innovation. Image is what has made harley a success.

[AZbiker]

Originally Posted by KradmelderSA

Ja, KTM is a very labour intensive bike for servicing. The KTM dealers I know service twins. But most of their dealers are multi-line, with ducati, aprilia etc.

Picking on individual bikes doesnt prove anything. Look how many GSs get 300 000 - 400 000 km on them. What other bike will do that? You can pick any brand and you will find a bike that has broken down.

Another problem with KTM is the battery is at the bottom, not under the seat. You can say its bad design but Its designed for optimal weight distribution and off road performance, not ease of service. Its also sensitive to fuel quality. Depends what you look for in a bike. For serious off road, KTM is the bee's knees and its balancing and suspension are tops. For commuting, long didstance tar touring, many other bikes are better.

But the harley, why would anyone want an underpowered, loud, vibrating, heavy bike? No one does. But they want the harley looks and image or sound. That is the one thing Harley is King at: selling an image and lifestyle. The down side of that is that they will battle to sell a bike that doesnt fit the image people want. Harley marketting know exactly what they are doing. They have made the image self perpetuating. No need even for innovation. Image is what has made harley a success.

My H-D was easy to service and costs of ownership were very low. Oil changes required one tool--a standard stubby screwdriver.

No valve adjustments.

No water pump to leak or go bad.

One carb with large passages instead of four carbs with small passages.

Cheap, long-lasting tires.

I didn't like the belt drive, but the chain conversion was trouble-free. My bike didn't make enough power to even think about stretching a 530 Regina chain.

The big one: Dealers that actually stocked parts.

Stuff like brake rotors and footpegs were a lot cheaper than they are for my Kawasaki, despite being roughly the same level of technology. Unlike Kawasaki, H-D dealers charge reasonable prices for their parts.

And I like all my bikes loud. If I owned a KTM, it would have aftermarket exhaust. I'm working on making a set of stubby cans for my Concours.

My ZG1000 has shed more fasteners than my H-D ever did.

My XLH883 was no heavier than a GS1150. Down on power, but I never had a problem off the pavement. On pavement, my top speed was 105 on the flats (verified by an accurate speedometer, a device that has never been fitted by the factory to any Japanese motorcycle in recorded history) and I could bop on down the highway at 85-90mph all day and get 40mpg.

If I could afford another one, I'd ditch my Concours in a heartbeat. But riding a bike I'm not thrilled with is better than not riding at all.

One more thing: I could run any gas I damn well please in my H-D. She ran just fine on Mexican regular. I do not want a bike that will not run on regular grade gas. Bunch of high-strung bullshit.

[KradmelderSA]

Originally Posted by AZbiker

My H-D was easy to service and costs of ownership were very low. Oil changes required one tool--a standard stubby screwdriver.

No valve adjustments.

No water pump to leak or go bad.

One carb with large passages instead of four carbs with small passages.

Cheap, long-lasting tires.

I didn't like the belt drive, but the chain conversion was trouble-free. My bike didn't make enough power to even think about stretching a 530 Regina chain.

The big one: Dealers that actually stocked parts.

Stuff like brake rotors and footpegs were a lot cheaper than they are for my Kawasaki, despite being roughly the same level of technology. Unlike Kawasaki, H-D dealers charge reasonable prices for their parts.

And I like all my bikes loud. If I owned a KTM, it would have aftermarket exhaust. I'm working on making a set of stubby cans for my Concours.

My ZG1000 has shed more fasteners than my H-D ever did.

My XLH883 was no heavier than a GS1150. Down on power, but I never had a problem off the pavement. On pavement, my top speed was 105 on the flats (verified by an accurate speedometer, a device that has never been fitted by the factory to any Japanese motorcycle in recorded history) and I could bop on down the highway at 85-90mph all day and get 40mpg.

If I could afford another one, I'd ditch my Concours in a heartbeat. But riding a bike I'm not thrilled with is better than not riding at all.

One more thing: I could run any gas I damn well please in my H-D. She ran just fine on Mexican regular. I do not want a bike that will not run on regular grade gas. Bunch of high-strung bullshit.

Ok I get it. You are saying the advantage of HD is ease of servicing and cheap and accessible parts. True in USA but not here. Very few Harley dealers, very expensive bikes (at least as expesnive as BMW if not more), and we are not tooled for american sizes. All my tools are metric. So servicing is limited to very few places.

The BMW runs on low octane and even dirty fuel. The KTM will run on regular, but the FI is sensitive to dirty fuel, which you may get in remote areas. The KTM also chows rear tyres due to the torque. at most 7000 km on a knobblie and 10000 on a 50/50 tyre.

Speed wise, my GS has clocked 238 kmh on my GPS. Still have the reading under max speed. That was with road tyres obviously. The KTM wont reach that but will easily do 180 kmh. havent tried to go faster due to off raod tyres.

But nothing beats the shit eating grin of opening up a KTM with after market pipes, feeling the front end want to come up. Its an addictive disease. Katoomaholism.. You will open your wallet to feed the addiction

[KradmelderSA]

One has to wonder why a HD V-twin produces far less power than other V-twins, especially when considering the large displacement of HD engines. Why the pathetic power/weight ratio? It's their long stroke to small bore, and the fact that it is a push rod engine. It means HD engines can't rev high without vibrating horribly. They rev at half the speed of similar engines. Where a HD may explode at 6000 rpm, another V twin is just getting into its stride. Vibration is worsened by 45 degree motor, which gives that harley sound.

So engine design is a victory of image over substance. Have the harley sound instead of performance, and suffer low power and vibrations.


Harley uses very old engine technology to remain simple, and says 'its tradition'. Why then don't harley riders cage in Model Ts for the sake of tradition? Just call it the Amercian Special Edition classic super fat glide or something like that and put a huge price tag to sell a newly built Model T and weather a leather cap and goggles. It has nothing to do with tradition, its the victory of image over substance. In what other form of machinery are people prepared to accept outdated inefficient design for the sake of 'tradtion'.? Many will accept anything for the sake of image if they buy into the image.

Look at the price of harley. For that price one would expect performance and the product of R&D. . But harley is an expensive fasion statement. Its like saying I'm a rebel and a free spirit and I paid a fortune for a 50 HP motor and 300 kg of chrome to show it.

Harley started to produce a proper bike with the V rod. Its water cooled and has a 60 degree v twin. hence doesnt have the traditional harley sound. And so now a harley can rev like any other bike and produce power without all the vibrations. It But its stll a seriously heavy 300+ kg monster. A fat chick. But it will never go anywhere as harley owners want the harley image, not an improved bike. As a compromise the V rod has a long wheel base and low seat height, which i would guess sacrifice cornering ability just for that feet forward harley look. Again image takes precedence over substance. Sex appeal over the ability to do the deed. I fell for this when I dated models, and then found they dont perform in bed. I prefer one that performs now than some made up tart.

Harley has survived by brand image and by lobbying to get high tariffs on foreign bikes in order to justify outrageous HD prices. Through their image, accessories, clothing and social networsk like HOG, they keep a loyal if ageing clientele, and attract ageing wannabes. Cant do HOG parades in pirate costume and HD acessories on a rice burner. That has been the HD success. So much so that BMW has also started to peddle a lifestyle, clothing range and look, and sponsored BMW clubs. That is acknowledgement of the success of the harley strategy.


Harley is one of the smartest bike companies in the world. They sell image with little new technology at a premium price. Image with little substance. Harley has the ability to take a fat slob in a trailer park and assembly line factory job, put him on one of their bikes and make him feel good. A real bad biker type and not just a loser. Ja, a real bad ass. A kid on a 250 jap bike will outperform your sportser.

A harley is image on 2 wheels. trying to make a statement by flash, chrome and noise. Americans love performance and technology and are world leaders at it. why settle for less in their bikes?

[TuonoBiker]

Originally Posted by KradmelderSA

One has to wonder why a HD V-twin produces far less power than other V-twins, especially when considering the large displacement of HD engines. Why the pathetic power/weight ratio? It's their long stroke to small bore, and the fact that it is a push rod engine. It means HD engines can't rev high without vibrating horribly. They rev at half the speed of similar engines. Where a HD may explode at 6000 rpm, another V twin is just getting into its stride. Vibration is worsened by 45 degree motor, which gives that harley sound.

So engine design is a victory of image over substance. Have the harley sound instead of performance, and suffer low power and vibrations.


Harley uses very old engine technology to remain simple, and says 'its tradition'. Why then don't harley riders cage in Model Ts for the sake of tradition? Just call it the Amercian Special Edition classic super fat glide or something like that and put a huge price tag to sell a newly built Model T and weather a leather cap and goggles. It has nothing to do with tradition, its the victory of image over substance. In what other form of machinery are people prepared to accept outdated inefficient design for the sake of 'tradtion'.? Many will accept anything for the sake of image if they buy into the image.

Look at the price of harley. For that price one would expect performance and the product of R&D. . But harley is an expensive fasion statement. Its like saying I'm a rebel and a free spirit and I paid a fortune for a 50 HP motor and 300 kg of chrome to show it.

Harley started to produce a proper bike with the V rod. Its water cooled and has a 60 degree v twin. hence doesnt have the traditional harley sound. And so now a harley can rev like any other bike and produce power without all the vibrations. It But its stll a seriously heavy 300+ kg monster. A fat chick. But it will never go anywhere as harley owners want the harley image, not an improved bike. As a compromise the V rod has a long wheel base and low seat height, which i would guess sacrifice cornering ability just for that feet forward harley look. Again image takes precedence over substance. Sex appeal over the ability to do the deed. I fell for this when I dated models, and then found they dont perform in bed. I prefer one that performs now than some made up tart.

Harley has survived by brand image and by lobbying to get high tariffs on foreign bikes in order to justify outrageous HD prices. Through their image, accessories, clothing and social networsk like HOG, they keep a loyal if ageing clientele, and attract ageing wannabes. Cant do HOG parades in pirate costume and HD acessories on a rice burner. That has been the HD success. So much so that BMW has also started to peddle a lifestyle, clothing range and look, and sponsored BMW clubs. That is acknowledgement of the success of the harley strategy.


Harley is one of the smartest bike companies in the world. They sell image with little new technology at a premium price. Image with little substance. Harley has the ability to take a fat slob in a trailer park and assembly line factory job, put him on one of their bikes and make him feel good. A real bad biker type and not just a loser. Ja, a real bad ass. A kid on a 250 jap bike will outperform your sportser.

A harley is image on 2 wheels. trying to make a statement by flash, chrome and noise. Americans love performance and technology and are world leaders at it. why settle for less in their bikes?

As an owner of a Street Glide, I can still agree with most of what you are saying. I think most of the HD line of bikes are completely useless...they have ZERO function, all style and looks to impress the local idiots at the next bar.

However, their touring line does make some amount of sense:

- reliable engine - maybe down on horsepower, but not lacking in torque...you do realize a stock 103 motor makes 100ft.lb of torque, right? More than enough to roll on the gas out of corners in a relaxed pace on an 800lb bike with a 300 lb rider and 250lb wife (not me, but certainly the average...lol)
- great dealer network so when you're far from home, a dealer is available WITH PARTS
- smooth, comfortable ride...you can still hustle a Street Glide through corners much quicker than you think.
- loads of functional aftermarket support for touring do-dads and "farkling"

All that said, after 1 year of ownership, I think I may go back to looking at an R1200RT. I'm a sport-biker (still have the Tuono Factory) at heart and feel the R1200RT will do me a bit better. Plus, I really get uncomfortable with the foot-forward design and lack of adjustable windshield. Some days I really do enjoy being on the SG with the wife on back...its easy-going and enjoyable - not high-strung and begging to have the throttle wrung out like a sportbike.

[Rinty]

What is Harley doing...? btcn

There is an article about what they are up to in the current issue of Cycle World. It's positive, and hopefully, accurate.

[NJ-Brett]

Well, the Harley V twin has a lot of torque and low rpm power, which some riders like.
Contrast that with a high reving high peak power output bike and its a much different ride.
2 valves, cam profile and timing, bore and stroke give a lot of power even at idle, the motor is narrow, and has the Harley sound.
Others sound like big lawn mowers, or screaming insects.

Remember, some of the bikes are close to 1000 pounds, might have 5 or 6 hundred pounds of people on them, plus 200 pounds of luggage, may pull a trailer, up hill, into a head wind, at 85 mph, and not break a sweat.

Making a rolling work of art is another part of the picture, agree with it or not...

I like the power delivery of the Harleys, but not the rest, the lack of lean angle, the excessive weight, the low seats and joke suspension. I like the classic style and the motor, and that is about it.
But if you are riding a bike cross the US and back, they are a top pick in most reviews.

I myself like bikes between the two, lighter, good lean angle, broad power delivery, old sportster, old or new Triumph Bonneville, guzzi V7 classic, w650, etc.
I like being comfortable and having fun, big heavy bikes with stupid low seats and no lean angle turn me off as much as a sport bike lay on the tank and scream around does.

[HammerMacGreed]

Harley can be very confusing. I had a '96 Kawasaki Vulcan 1500A. 90 CI compared to 88CI that HD had. Liquid cooled, dual plug heads, 4 valves per cylinder. Vance and Hines pipes, dual air pods/dual carb, V&H jet kit. Had more torque and HP than the 88 twin cam. After mods about 95 foot pounds and 70HP. And it weighed as much as a sportster...Fast little bastard that would actually pull a wheelie (surprised the shit out of my HD riding friend that borrowed it when his sporty was down). Unfortunately the Kawi 1500A has all the beauty of a transit bus. Same problem with XR1200, VROD, Vega etc. It's almost like there's two separate HD companies, one that makes good looking bikes (that work well for legal speed touring), and the other one filled with engineers from Lighthouse for the Blind schools...

[TuonoBiker]

Originally Posted by HammerMacGreed

Harley can be very confusing. ..................... It's almost like there's two separate HD companies, one that makes good looking bikes (that work well for legal speed touring), and the other one filled with engineers from Lighthouse for the Blind schools...

Now thats hilarious!!!

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by outsidein

.......................... Harleys are what they are and but there seems to be a huge demographic out their that want to be Harley riders and would never even consider test riding another bike or buying functional gear.

Harley has some VERY good riding gear. Yup, it's true. Body Armor and everything. They also have some of the best wet weather gear on the market.

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by Tripped1

Well the XBs were more than comparable liter bikes at the time....by a good two thousand dollar.

.....the dealer fucked up the purchase of an 1125R for me.

Good thing too...I'd have been pissed if it got orphaned 8 months later.

Orphaned? How so? Parts and Service is still available... And will be for years to come.

[perterra]

Originally Posted by KradmelderSA

They sell image with little new technology at a premium price. Image with little substance. Harley has the ability to take a fat slob in a trailer park and assembly line factory job, put him on one of their bikes and make him feel good. A real bad biker type and not just a loser. Ja, a real bad ass. A kid on a 250 jap bike will outperform your sportser.

A harley is image on 2 wheels. trying to make a statement by flash, chrome and noise. Americans love performance and technology and are world leaders at it. why settle for less in their bikes?

Cant let it go can you?

Please don't talk about image, didn't you post some chick wearing pink to match the pink bike a few pages back?

Americans lover performance and technology? You don't know shit about what Americans like, you think you do, but not a clue dude. There are large subcultures within America that drive much of this. Sure some Americans love high tech performance, but theres a lot that prefer


or


Neither handle well, neither particularly fast either I would guess, both probably fun to tool around in.

Come spend some time here before you decide who we are.

[Tepi]

Really, do you need track performance on the street. For my knowledge most speedlimits are set at limit which a harley will do just fine. Why do I want a harley, sure I like the classic looks (I'm not into the chrome beasts), but I do like the seating position, it really is comfortable, both on the forty eight and the XR1200X. Only downside with the forty eight is the fuel tank, but its not like I'm going to ride it to gobi desert or sahara. Aircooled engine has its own upsides, no water system to service and no waterpump to fail randomly.

I really dont care for the pirate dressup contest and I have my riding gear which I'd use when riding a harley. Fullface shoei, jacket, pants and boots, I dont need to buy a novelty WW2 helmet and a doorag.

[kraven]

Originally Posted by KradmelderSA

Harley has the ability to take a fat slob in a trailer park and assembly line factory job, put him on one of their bikes and make him feel good. A real bad biker type and not just a loser. Ja, a real bad ass. A kid on a 250 jap bike will outperform your sportser.

wow. That's some offensive neural vomit right there.


Not cool.

Factory workers and blue collar folk in general built our nation. It's rude and ignorant to piss down the mouths of people who scrape their pennies together to buy a nice motorcycle to ride when they're not killing themselves on an assembly line or some other blue collar job.

You have several incomplete thoughts going on here. Maybe you should finish your thoughts before you post?

[perterra]

Originally Posted by kraven

wow. That's some offensive neural vomit right there.


Not cool.

Factory workers and blue collar folk in general built our nation. It's rude and ignorant to piss down the mouths of people who scrape their pennies together to buy a nice motorcycle to ride when they're not killing themselves on an assembly line or some other blue collar job.

You have several incomplete thoughts going on here. Maybe you should finish your thoughts before you post?

I think he reached the depth of his thought process.