What is Harley doing?

[ph0rk]

Originally Posted by tcourdin

What did you expect those big turd bikes you were riding to do..be sporty? "Pay that kind of money?" I paid 13k for my Fat Bob, thats less than a BMW...a KTM...and less than most Jap bikes. I dont get all the talk that Harleys are expensive.

They dont make first bikes, commuter bikes, or general economy bikes. (a sportster is not a good first bike).

or: the kind of bikes we actually need in America right now.

there are cheaper bikes that fill that niche available that are shipped here in crates. why is that?

[tcourdin]

Originally Posted by ph0rk

or: the kind of bikes we actually need in America right now.

What kind of bikes do we need in America right now? Even if they did make an entry level 250cc it would be impossible for them to keep the price as low as the overseas stuff that is flooding the market.

[doxiedog]

I looked for a buell for 3 yrs.,at a HD.dealer.
Was told if i paid for one,they would order it.

I went to a HD dealer to look at 1 inch bars,
for my 2011 bonneville.
"WE don't make anything for a triumph!"
Do bars know where they are?
This is a large dealer,and it is a JOKE.

[sporthog93]

Motorcycle Market Share

Motorcycles

BMW R 26, 1959 (Photo by Celesteh - CC-BY)

Harley-Davidson 28%
Honda 25%
Yamaha 17%
Suzuki 13%
Kawasaki 11%
KTM 2%
BMW 1%
Triumph 1%
Ducati 1%


ATVs
Honda 30%
Yamaha 20%
Polaris 20%
Suzuki 11%
Kawasaki 9%
Arctic Cat 7%
BRP 3%(6)


Demographics of a New Bike Rider

Age Gender
20 years and younger 1% Male 90%
21-25 7% Female 10%
26-30 9%
31-40 22%
41-50 30%
51-60 23%
61-70 7%
71 and older 1%
Marital Status
Married 65%
Single (never married) 17%
Widowed 2%
Divorced/separated 16%(7

[jacksgp]

Originally Posted by Disco Stu

Some posters in here have no hate for H-D. Some of us would actually prefer to buy a US made motorbike and have the incredible dealer support that H-D offers. But the motor company doesn't make bikes for the way we want to ride. We can still comment on the motor company, can't we?

How do you spell VICTORY

[tcourdin]

Originally Posted by doxiedog

I looked for a buell for 3 yrs.,at a HD.dealer.
Was told if i paid for one,they would order it.

I went to a HD dealer to look at 1 inch bars,
for my 2011 bonneville.
"WE don't make anything for a triumph!"
Do bars know where they are?
This is a large dealer,and it is a JOKE.

LOL! Recently my wife decided she would like a small backrest for the passenger seat, Harley doesnt make one and aftermarket companies dont make a small one like I wanted. So I found a writeup a guy posted and he had mixed HD parts fit my model and made a backrest work. He even had pics and part numbers. It was like an act of God at my local HD store to get them to sell me the parts that werent correct for my bike, even though I knew they would fit.

[USMCG_Spyder]

Originally Posted by tcourdin

What did you expect those big turd bikes you were riding to do..be sporty? "Pay that kind of money?" I paid 13k for my Fat Bob, thats less than a BMW...a KTM...and less than most Jap bikes. I dont get all the talk that Harleys are expensive.

No, but I expected them to go a Hell of a lot faster in less time when I poured the beans to 'em.

Re-read my post and you'll see I'm not talking about the bike itself, but rather the money folks put into them after the purchase, and let's not even get started on $ervice visits.

This isn't about you specifically, but if you want to get specific I paid $12k for my Road Star 1700, jetted and piped and out the door. I bet it'd pull your Fat Bob off the line, too

You bought a bike on the low end of the scale, but the bigger bikes are a lot of $$$ for very little in return.

[NJ-Brett]

The problem with their bikes for me is they seem to build everything for midgets.
I have a 2009 1200 sportster, my 3rd Harley out of many bikes.
The motor is fine, good torque, fuel injection, its been reliable, looks very good to me, that is why I bought it.
I got it for less then the Moto Guzzi V7 classic is going to cost me, and thats only 750cc's.

My bike came with stupid bad ground clearance issues, to fit the dwarf's I guess, nasty crappy shocks and forks, and a worthless seat.
Its also about 75 pounds overweight.
The nasty seat locks you into position, and the pegs are too far forward and high, stock the handlebars had me leaning backwards.
The ride home from the dealers was funny, first I thought 'wow loads of low end power!'.
After that it was crash, bang grind grind grind bang, BANG.
The forks bang and crash if you hit a pebble in the road, the shocks the same, and going around a corner at car speeds will get sparks from the dragging hard parts and put you into a ditch, as you can only go as fast as a bus or overloaded big truck.
This is the 'sportster'!

Now I had an 883 sportster back in 1986, and it was nothing like this, it was similar to the 1979 Triumph Bonneville I traded in, it could lean and was not uncomfortable.
It did vibrate, and only had 4 speeds, but it was fun.
It felt light and nimble and cut through heavy traffic like a hot knife through butter.

They do not make any bike like that anymore except maybe the xr.



Its all about how the bike LOOKS, and how the little people who ride them look while riding.
Its not about riding at all.
Looks great, sounds great, runs great, its good for about 20 minutes then you want to get off, and it always feels odd.
I suspect they do it this way to get people to upgrade to a huge boat of a bike that seats 4. And yes, you CAN get it with reverse.
After all, it would not cost them anything to mount the pegs in the proper place...

Its working very well for them, as their dealerships are huge wonderful places, new, loaded with everything and customers.
The other brand dealers that are still in business look like they might not be much longer, and 3 have closed down in the last year.

[Zerk]

Originally Posted by xymotic

income from financial services of $50.9 million, Operating income from the motorcycles and related products segment was $101.5 million


Now, I am not an accountant... but.

Right off the top, HALF of their income comes from being a bank, not selling motorcycles.

I am to lazy to go look, but are you sure its not a third? Though they are financing motorcycle sales, which allows them to sell more bikes.

I thought credit portion, was treated as a seperate company. Didn't Warren Buffet buy up alot of that debt, but he doesn't own Harley.

[Zerk]

Originally Posted by doxiedog

I looked for a buell for 3 yrs.,at a HD.dealer.
Was told if i paid for one,they would order it.

I went to a HD dealer to look at 1 inch bars,
for my 2011 bonneville.
"WE don't make anything for a triumph!"
Do bars know where they are?
This is a large dealer,and it is a JOKE.

I had a similar event. wanted highway pegs for 1 1/4 bar. Instead of showing me what they could sell me, they asked what bike it was for, and said they couldn't help me.

Alot dealer need to reap what they have sown.

[easyrider88]

Originally Posted by NJ-Brett

The problem with their bikes for me is they seem to build everything for midgets.
I have a 2009 1200 sportster, my 3rd Harley out of many bikes.
The motor is fine, good torque, fuel injection, its been reliable, looks very good to me, that is why I bought it.
I got it for less then the Moto Guzzi V7 classic is going to cost me, and thats only 750cc's.

My bike came with stupid bad ground clearance issues, to fit the dwarf's I guess, nasty crappy shocks and forks, and a worthless seat.
Its also about 75 pounds overweight.
The nasty seat locks you into position, and the pegs are too far forward and high, stock the handlebars had me leaning backwards.
The ride home from the dealers was funny, first I thought 'wow loads of low end power!'.
After that it was crash, bang grind grind grind bang, BANG.
The forks bang and crash if you hit a pebble in the road, the shocks the same, and going around a corner at car speeds will get sparks from the dragging hard parts and put you into a ditch, as you can only go as fast as a bus or overloaded big truck.
This is the 'sportster'!

Now I had an 883 sportster back in 1986, and it was nothing like this, it was similar to the 1979 Triumph Bonneville I traded in, it could lean and was not uncomfortable.
It did vibrate, and only had 4 speeds, but it was fun.
It felt light and nimble and cut through heavy traffic like a hot knife through butter.

They do not make any bike like that anymore except maybe the xr.



Its all about how the bike LOOKS, and how the little people who ride them look while riding.
Its not about riding at all.
Looks great, sounds great, runs great, its good for about 20 minutes then you want to get off, and it always feels odd.
I suspect they do it this way to get people to upgrade to a huge boat of a bike that seats 4. And yes, you CAN get it with reverse.
After all, it would not cost them anything to mount the pegs in the proper place...

Its working very well for them, as their dealerships are huge wonderful places, new, loaded with everything and customers.
The other brand dealers that are still in business look like they might not be much longer, and 3 have closed down in the last year.

i agree.most riders take a 5 mile putt-putt to the lacal tavern and back.and park their 20K iron at the door.its status.

[Tuna Helper]

Originally Posted by btcn

I have to agree with you on this. The XR 1200 IS a step, but its a miss. Its slow, DOES NOT rev, doesn't handle too well, doesn't look to racy, and costs far more than it needs to. I think Harley getting rit of Buell was a VERY stupid move. I know SOME young guys WILL set foot in a Buell dealer, but NEVER a Harley dealer. Bring Buells back, and improve them even more! COnstruct a model with a supped up V-Rod motor! Come on Harley! The Black custom isn't gonna do ANYTHING!

As much as I love Harley, I just want to see them stay in business and be successful. And unless they do something, they might have some trouble.

The 1125 Buell is a "souped up v-rod motor". The v-rod has 120 hp, the 1125 has 150.

[NJ-Brett]

The big ones are not bad bikes for long rides.
A guy I worked with rode from NJ to the west coast, picked up his wife who flew out and did a tour of the western stuff, then rode home (solo).
He started out with 100,000 miles on his bike and had no issues other then a cracked aftermarket exhaust mount.
No motor work was ever done to the bike, but he did put in a 6 speed trans.

Still, I would rather do it on a more sporty bike....I think.
I did the same thing on an old Triumph (1979), but I was a lot younger.

[Ceemack]

Originally Posted by Tuna Helper

The 1125 Buell is a "souped up v-rod motor". The v-rod has 120 hp, the 1125 has 150.

The 1125 Buell was a "souped up v-rod motor". The v-rod has 120 hp, the 1125 had 150.

FIFY.

Being critical of Harley doesn't mean someone "hates" Harley. Personally, I'd kind of like to be able to buy one myself. But I don't want a heavy tourer and I don't want a cruiser. Even if I could put up with the faults of a Sportster, it's dimensions are so puny I'd have to wear a fez when I rode it.

They'd make a useful B-school case--a dying (literally) demographic means that the product line has to fundamentally change so that new classes of customers can be attracted, but the corporate culture is deeply entwined with the current product line and highly resistant to change. They make a good contrast with Cadillac, which stagnated for a while but now seems to be making progress in putting out products that buyers under 65 might enjoy.

Oddly, those products tend to be smaller, lighter, faster and better-handling than Cadillac's more traditional products. Sound familiar?

The bike I'd like to see Harley bring out would be a lightweight standard bike with a fairly conventional, still-looks-like-a-Harley appearance--more up-to-date than a Sportster, but not as radical as a Buell. Think Honda Nighthawk. Give it an 800 or 1000 cc motor with 100 hp per liter (not that hard to do), but keep the weight down. Tune it more for low-end torque but don't rob the top end too deeply.

And make it big enough that somebody taller than my baby sister could ride it and not look like a Shriner in a parade.

[NJ-Brett]

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Ceemack

The 1125 Buell was a "souped up v-rod motor". The v-rod has 120 hp, the 1125 had 150.

FIFY.

Being critical of Harley doesn't mean someone "hates" Harley. Personally, I'd kind of like to be able to buy one myself. But I don't want a heavy tourer and I don't want a cruiser. Even if I could put up with the faults of a Sportster, it's dimensions are so puny I'd have to wear a fez when I rode it.

They'd make a useful B-school case--a dying (literally) demographic means that the product line has to fundamentally change so that new classes of customers can be attracted, but the corporate culture is deeply entwined with the current product line and highly resistant to change. They make a good contrast with Cadillac, which stagnated for a while but now seems to be making progress in putting out products that buyers under 65 might enjoy.

Oddly, those products tend to be smaller, lighter, faster and better-handling than Cadillac's more traditional products. Sound familiar?

The bike I'd like to see Harley bring out would be a lightweight standard bike with a fairly conventional, still-looks-like-a-Harley appearance--more up-to-date than a Sportster, but not as radical as a Buell. Think Honda Nighthawk. Give it an 800 or 1000 cc motor with 100 hp per liter (not that hard to do), but keep the weight down. Tune it more for low-end torque but don't rob the top end too deeply.

And make it big enough that somebody taller than my baby sister could ride it and not look like a Shriner in a parade.