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Old 09-17-2014, 01:22 PM   #1
dwayne OP
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TEXASELVIS COBDER riding truths and myths

Included: crouching vs. standing and the applicable physics and ergonomics, as well as clutch use.

Some background material:

http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...744112&page=37

The post that brings us here:

"I was inspired to write this by a restless dream after a long day on the COBDR. At 73 years old, on a little Yamaha XT250 with 70 lbs of camping gear, I was tired at the end of each day. I have years of experience on trails in Mexico, New Mexico, Colorado, the Trans America Trail, the Great Divide Route, the Texas Enduro Circuit, the DFW Trials Association, and others.

On this trip, I met many Adventure Riders, most on larger bikes, who seemed to think standing upright on the pegs was the accepted riding stature. So here I go........... Standing upright on the pegs is for resting your butt!
I know, everyone does it, it looks cool, and the experts make it look easy..... but most of you are not experts!


For the average rider, on a steep, rocky, unstable, narrow trail.... the best position is "The Crouch". Your butt caressing the seat, your weight supported by your legs and feet on the pegs, your elbows up and body leaning forward.


Why? you say..... I am an engineer by training but I will spare you the explanation using Moment of Inertia, Angular Momentum, Center of Gravity, and other technical terms. Instead, try this demonstration.....
Hold a golf club or baseball bat extended at arms length in each hand, in opposite directions, then twist at your waist in both directions. Feel the stress, energy, and time that it takes to start and stop each motion. Now... hold the clubs or bats against your body and do the same twisting motion at your waist. It is amazing how much less energy and how much quicker you can twist. When your arms and shoulders are above the bars, reactions are slower and require more effort than when in "the crouch". Think of a horse racing jockey, the way he crouches in the stirrups gripping the horse with his knees.


There are of course many other factors such as momentum. Momentum is king.... to fast and you don't have time to correct line or balance. Too slow and you lose rpm and traction. I read a lot about burnt out clutches. The clutch is only for starting and stopping.... it should not be used to maintain rpm or traction. If your throttle control is not so good and you have trouble maintaining rpm, try setting the idle speed higher! If you have street tires or less aggressive dual sport tires... try lowering the air pressure before that challenging section. Confidence in yourself and your bike is also necessary. Be aggressive in your attitude and movements as you start the hard section. Don't just sit there and expect the bike to roll over the rocks on it's own. Load and unload the front and rear wheel and will the bike to go where you command.


Confidence, momentum, position.... all of these helped this old man "clean" both Ophir and Cinnamon Passes this year from West to East with only one disappointing three point turn on Ophir. The little 250 just couldn't pull the apex of the switchback with the load. If I had jetted it properly it would have been "clean" all the way. So I guess I left off Preparation!


So when you ride through that steep, difficult section in "the crouch" with no dabs or crashes.... stand up tall and proud on the pegs and rest your butt!"

TEXASELVIS

Let's hear it from the collective.
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dwayne screwed with this post 09-17-2014 at 01:28 PM
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Old 09-17-2014, 01:38 PM   #2
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I stopped reading at "I am an engineer...."
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Old 09-17-2014, 01:54 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double H View Post
I stopped reading at "I am an engineer...."
Ha..ha.....I stopped reading when I saw he only had 7 posts. I guess the BMW performance school, Rawhyde school...all the other schools....oh and Dakar racers are all full of shit.
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Old 09-17-2014, 02:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double H View Post
I stopped reading at "I am an engineer...."
I work with stuff that 'engineers' design every day. Once I cut that stuff in pieces, weld it back together, and smack it with a 4lb a few times it usually fits. :lol.


As far as his riding techniques, I've been doing the exact opposite of what he says for the last 16 years of riding dirt, and it's been working out ok. I think I'll continue on with what I'm doing unless he posts up pictures of race trophies or something.
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COBDR and UTBDR on my klx250:

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1003485

jules083 screwed with this post 09-17-2014 at 02:31 PM
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Old 09-17-2014, 02:13 PM   #5
2bold2getold
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Man, I new he was going to catch a bunch of flack on this one. You have to understand he's talking about these guys we see standing straight up on the road/trail and in all these videos that you can tell just stood up for the camera..... And we are in our 70's. When we go for a ride, the total age is 144. We stand when necessary and to change positions to rest. We didn't see anyone else on the COBDR (or anywhere else riding in their 70's). Although we did meet two young guys on top of Cinnamon Pass on 800gs' wearing T-shirts jeans and running shoes. I think most of us understand the advantage to standing, moving side to side and front to back and using your legs to absorb terrain changes. Far fewer know the subtleties of loading and unloading the rear tire. If you don't and you ride much hard stuff, you soon will. As for slipping the clutch, I know a lot of you young hot shots take fast over powered, over weight and over geared bikes up and down some pretty nasty stuff by slipping the clutch and riding the brakes. But I think most reasonable riders would agree that a better tool for the job of clawing your way over steep, wet, slick, loose, scree covered jeep trail passes would be something with a lower 1st gear and a tractor for a motor. We tend to use bikes with characteristics closer to trials bikes than moto-crossers or road bikes that don't need clutch slipping.
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Old 09-17-2014, 02:59 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwayne View Post
Included: crouching vs. standing and the
For the average rider, on a steep, rocky, unstable, narrow trail.... the best position is "The Crouch". Your butt caressing the seat, your weight supported by your legs and feet on the pegs, your elbows up and body leaning forward.
I agree with the crouch being an excellent position for riding tough sections, I rather enjoy the ability to load the front or rear of the bike as needed, it is kind of an aggressive stance on the bike. I use it when I really need to focus my attention on the riding at hand but requires strength and can be tiring to maintain.
Standing upright on the pegs is corny! But useful for ventilating ones jacket and crotch, resting one's butt, stretching one's legs and clearing obstacles without crouching.



















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Old 09-17-2014, 03:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by RideDualSport.com View Post
I agree with the crouch being an excellent position for riding tough sections, I rather enjoy the ability to load the front or rear of the bike as needed, it is kind of an aggressive stance on the bike. I use it when I really need to focus my attention on the riding at hand but requires strength and can be tiring to maintain.
Standing upright on the pegs is corny! But useful for ventilating ones jacket and crotch, resting one's butt, stretching one's legs and clearing obstacles without crouching.


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Old 09-17-2014, 09:56 PM   #8
dwayne OP
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A wet clutch is designed to be slipped, and even on a light bike like a trials bike the are slipped regularly. Clutch plates are a consumable, like brake pads. Dry clutch bikes can "burn out" plates, but those bikes typically neither have idle,adjustments, nor sprockets to adjust gearing.

As far as the whole engineer thing is concerned, my ridding buddy who is a very accomplished engineer (masters degree) now stands, not crouches (as he did when we started, same logic) as our riding gets more and more technical. Again you want your body mass out on the end of a lever arm, so you can more effectively counteract imbalances the bike experiences with less movement. The stance is closer to the athletic "ready" stance most high skill riders used is used in many sports; knees slightly bent waist slightly bent , elbows up. I di lock the knees occasionally to rest, or get a better view of the scenery. When your bike is properly set up is is a very comfortable position. The ready stance, however, allows better manipulation of the controls. Crouching means pulling on the bars to keep your butt off the seat, which tends to increase the amount of unintended handle bar input as you get bounced around. The pulling also makes precise lever inputs difficult and increases arm pump. You really want your hands resting on the bars, using you knees and feet for balance.

Having said all this, the COBDR is not terribly technical, not enough for prolonged standing, except that it is far smoother ride. The rocks embedded into those roads are pretty jarring. If I were sitting I would regularly be bottoming my suspension and generally be beating up my body.
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"When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"

dwayne screwed with this post Yesterday at 09:15 AM
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:59 PM   #9
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Stopped reading at "Standing upright on the pegs is for resting your butt!"
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Old Yesterday, 06:56 AM   #10
2bold2getold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwayne View Post
A wet clutch is designed to be slipped, and even on a light bike like a trials bike the are slipped regularly. Clutch plates are a consumable, like brake pads. Dry clutch bikes can "burn out" plates, but those bikes typically neither have idle,adjustments, nor sprockets to adjust gearing.

As far as the whole engineer thing is concerned, my ridding buddy who is a very accomplished engineer (masters degree) now stands, not crouches (as he did when we started, same logic) as our riding gets more and more technical. Again you want your body mass out on the end of a lever arm, so you can more effectively counteract imbalances the bike experiences with less movement. The stance is closer to the athletic "ready" stance used in many sports; knees slightly bent waist slightly bent , elbows up. I di lock the knees occasionally to rest, or get a better view of the scenery. When your bike is properly set up is is a very comfortable position. The ready stance, however, allows better manipulation of the controls. Crouching means pulling on the bars to keep your butt off the seat, which tends to increase the amount of unintended handle bar input as you get bounced around. The pulling also makes precise lever inputs difficult and increases arm pump. You really want your hands resting on the bars, using you knees and feet for balance.

Having said all this, the COBDR is not terribly technical, not enough for prolonged standing, except that it is far smoother ride. The rocks embedded into those roads are pretty jarring. If I were sitting I would regularly be bottoming my suspension and generally be beating up my body.
I'm not going to respond. This statement pretty much speaks for itself. Looks like Mr. dwyane is just looking for an argument.
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Old Yesterday, 09:13 AM   #11
johnson
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Young hotshot here.

I very frequently slip the clutch on my trials bike.

Touratech COBDR videos shows nice scenery but very boring riding.

No idea what this "crouch" is but it sounds stupid.

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Old Yesterday, 09:14 AM   #12
dwayne OP
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Originally Posted by 2bold2getold View Post
I'm not going to respond. This statement pretty much speaks for itself. Looks like Mr. dwyane is just looking for an argument.
Can you see the irony in your post?

I wasn't the one on the COBDR thread who unprovoked and off topic criticizing (incorrectly) other riders for their technique. I am not "just" looking for an argument, but I am willing to take someone to task, especially someone who is being cocky:

"Why? you say..... I am an engineer by training but I will spare you the explanation using Moment of Inertia, Angular Momentum, Center of Gravity, and other technical terms"

That kinda stuff is like throwing flaming bags of shit...fine in Jo Mamma, but not in the COBDR thread.
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A "Day" of Dirt Biking Rockies East Slopes
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"When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"

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Old Yesterday, 09:50 AM   #13
ct-ktm
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Yeah this hasn't been talked about enough.

Leave it to an engineer to over think this..

This can be answered with one do you see Pro's stand or sit...

Take a good look at tons of different terrains ,desert,moto, hard enduro,etc..etc...

You will see tons of standing.. simple reason for that in a lot of conditions it is easier for your stand. If you don't see that point I don't what else to say.
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Old Today, 01:53 AM   #14
Mat
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I think what we need here is a definition of "standing". It seems to me that everybody is speaking about the same, but somehow it was decided that flinging verbal shit around is more fun.

While I agree with that, it does become somewhat a waste of time. So what do you guys define as "standing", what as "crouching", what as the "ready position"?

For example, you could define "standing" as a knees locked, relaxed, bum-stretching position that does not do much to enhance control in bumpy terrain, but feels really great after sitting on your ass for an hour. Or you could define it more like an "attack" position. In that case I suspect that this looks pretty similar to the "crouch".
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I think there might be a more scenic route somewhere...
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Old Today, 04:00 AM   #15
johnson
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Here you go.


Metcalfe stands while hill sits




Coldenhoff stands and Herlings sits



Roczen stands, Dungey sits


Stefan is known for standing up


but sometimes he sits too
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