Battery or starter issue?

[Taverner]

More trouble with my R90/6. I posted a few months ago about an electrical issue http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=861553 where the horn was not working. I finally was able to fix the wiring so that the horn works, but now have another issue, which I think is unrelated.

Yesterday I tried to start it up, and it would not, although the starter motor was energizing. A friend suggested removing the carb bowls and using the floats to flush out any blockages, because I noticed there was no fuel flowing through the fuel line. After doing this, I got the bike started momentarily, but I think the battery had been discharged, because the starter motor would go once or twice and then stop unless I let the bike sit for a few minutes.

I finally got the bike started, and ran it for a few minutes, but it stalled (maybe I didn't open the choke quickly enough, or maybe there is another carb issue). Again, I cannot get it started. When I press the ignition, it sounds like the starter turns over once or twice and then stops. If I keep holding the ignition down and pull the throttle, I'll hear clicks like a relay, but not starter motor.

I assumed this meant I had run the battery down, but when I measure it, it shows ~11.2 volts, and when I connect it to a trickle charger, the charger shows near 100% charge (and I'm afraid to leave it connected).

I'm at a loss for what I should do to figure out what is actually causing this issue, is my battery possibly in need of charge despite the charger gauge. I'm hesitant to go buy a new battery if it could be something else. I fear I damaged the starter motor somehow, but this is unlikely, right?

Does anyone have some insight to point me in the right direction to figure this out?

[Pokie]

Sounds to me like you may have a couple of problems going on, that is, if I understand your explaination.

First let's clear up how the starter is engaging. You say you push down the key and the starter sounds like it's engaging but not turning. When you press down the key, is the starter trying to crank all by itself or do you press the starter button?

If the starter is cranking or trying to crank all by itself, you could have a stuck or damaged starter button or a stuck or damaged starter selonoid.

If you think it's the switch, you can prove this by opening up the headlight bucket and disconnect the brown with black stripe wire. If the starter still cranks all by itself, then it's likely the selonoid.

The starter selonoid is the black lump on the side of the starter. If it's the selonoid, the starter will have to come out and the selonoid checked and or replaced.

A clicking starter usually indicates a low battery condition or loose or dirty battery terminals.

If the clicking sounds like it's small and under your gas tank, that may be your starter protection relay acting up.

If the starter engages but turns slowly or not at all, your starter may be in need of a good cleaning and lubrication. This condition may also indicate the nose on the starter casting has broken. Either way, the starter should be taken out and checked.

If you are only using a trickle charger, the problem may still be the battery being not fully cherged. A trickle charger usually will maintain but not charge a low battery. A lead-acid battery will lose about 1% every couple of days (like a lot of batteries). Trickle chargers are designed to maintain this loss but are not designed to actually charge a low battery. So, if your battery is very low, there's a good chance it may never come all the way back up with a trickle charger.

[Taverner]

Thanks Pokie, when I press on the start button after initially turning the key, it sounds as though the starter turns, but the engine does not start up. It doesn't try to go on it's own though.

I think the switch is good, since when I press it, it obviously tries to start up in regards to the starter, but engine does not start up. It sounds normal the first time now, but after this, does not make any sound. If I go on the throttle at the same time afterwards, I hear the clicking. Maybe just a coincidence that I am opening up the throttle when it makes the clicking relay noise. I'm opening up the throttle out of frustration and despration honestly, not expecting the starter to go.

From what you've said, it sounds like the culprit is the battery. The trickle charger is actually a full on charger, I believe. There are two settings, 2 amps (trickle) and 6 amps (medium charge). I am just being overly cautious because I know there is some amount of danger in over charging a battery, and the battery is reading 11.2 volts. I wasn't sure if this is a normal voltage for the nominal 12 volts, or if it should be higher. I read on another unrelated thread that the alternator on these bikes charges to ~14 volts.

It sounds like I just need to do a good charge on the battery, and perhaps replace this battery once it's running, partly if I've affected it's "health," and partly to have a less touchy battery.

Can I tell by the voltage alone if the battery is good to start the bike, without fancier equipment than a multimeter?

[Warin]

A "12" volt battery should read something like 12.4 volts after sitting for a while (say 20 minutes after running/charging). What kind of battery is it?

If a normal lead acid battery then carry on .. if AGM then it may be discharged too low to be charged by a 'normal' charger. I found placing a flat AGM battery in parallel with a good battery that was in a running car for 15 minutes enabled it then to be charged by a 'normal' charger.

There is a lot more info on the battery FAQ site www.batteryfaq.org/‎

[photomd]

Take your multimeter and read the battery voltage with nothing on. It should be about 12.5 volt. That reading will be the battery's resting voltage. Then turn on the bike and record the voltage while you hit the starter. It should slowly decrease as the engine cranks, but shouldn't drop quickly to less than 10v. I'd bet you battery drops quickly to nothing. That's called a load test. If it drops quickly, replace the battery and recheck.

[Taverner]

It's a Deka AGM. I read 11.2 at rest so off the bat it seems low. I can try a load test, which I had read about on another site but wasn't sure if it'd be so simple to perform.

I'll investigate further and read up on the FAQ.


It sounds like if it fails the load test I can try bringing it up with a running car and fail that simply replace it and try not to ruin another (assuming I did this and it wasn't bad off from the PO).

[photomd]

With the resting voltage so low, I'd charge it first. Make sure it's fully charged.Let it sit overnight and recheck the resting voltage. My AGM batteries all sit higher than 12.7v resting voltage. If it won't hold a resting voltage, you need to replace the battery.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Taverner

It's a Deka AGM. I read 11.2 at rest so off the bat it seems low. I can try a load test, which I had read about on another site but wasn't sure if it'd be so simple to perform.

I'll investigate further and read up on the FAQ.


It sounds like if it fails the load test I can try bringing it up with a running car and fail that simply replace it and try not to ruin another (assuming I did this and it wasn't bad off from the PO).

resting voltage of 11.2v is all but dead .. charge with your higher setting of 6amp.

use state of charge chart below for resting voltage after 4 hours or better yet overnight. your charging system should be putting out 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm, measured at battery. use a known to be correct meter.

[supershaft]

Whenever I see someone saying that an airhead should be charging 13.8 to 14.2 volts at the battery I feel compelled to say that I feel sorry for the misguided fools that think something is wrong with their airhead for not charging above 14 volts. Duane Ausherman, for instance, is always saying that they should. That will get your shop a lot of work since I have never seen any stock airhead charge over 13.9 and I have checked a LOT of airheads' charging systems. They will charge over 14 volts with a special high output regulator or readjusting the older stock types but they won't otherwise. Besides, with wet cell batteries you do not want your bike charging over 14 volts. It cooks them dry in short order. Airheads in reality? Anything over 13.5 is good and above 13.7 is great. If you are on the low side of good or a bit worse, a new B+ wire and any others that are showing signs of overheating will often get it back up to almost 14. I have brought many an airhead up a half volt or more thusly.

Static battery voltage? That spec is real close to absolutely worthless. I have tested SO many just charged bad batteries with over 13 volts static but they drop way down under a load. That scenario is real common in my experience. Don't have a load tester? Your starter is one. Watch the meter. 99% of the time its the battery and not the starter although it could be the starter or wiring but most likely not in my experience.

Good meters? Some of the cheapest meters I have used are the best. I have a $14 Radio Shack unit that I have used for 20 years. It doesn't have an amp draw feature but other than that I prefer it over my Snap-on multimeter. It zeroes out better and reads low ohms better than many a Fluke that I have compared it to.

[Warin]

Originally Posted by photomd

My AGM batteries all sit higher than 12.7v resting voltage. If it won't hold a resting voltage, you need to replace the battery.

Umm do not take the 'resting voltage' as being the same as when it is sitting in the bike .. connected to any parasitic load that the bike may have (clock, radio, alarm etc etc..) ... there are a lot of things said about batteries that have stuff not said (it come in the small print that people over look and even if they know it don't pass it on). I'm not typing it all here .. go read that Battery FAQ thingy .. there are pages of it, all good stuff.

[photomd]

My point was that a low resting voltage is already telling you the battery is toast or it needs to be charged. The true test of a battery is what it does under a load: that is described in my first post.

[_cy_]

if 13.5v is max voltage, battery would take much longer to charge back up. normal charging range for almost all 12v systems is 13.8v to 14.2v. why should airheads be any different? if your 12v charging system is only putting out 13.5v at mid rpm, something is wrong .... and/or something is wrong with your cheap meter.

13.6v is what a Yuasa 900 battery tender puts out in float mode, once lead acid battery reaches full charge at 14.8v and current absorption go down to a few milliamps.

think in terms of water flowing in a pipe ... voltage is the pressure, current is the amount of flow.

for instance AGM doesn't like to be charged higher than 14.8v .. 14.2v will charge an AGM at a decent rate ... so if a 12v charging system only puts out 13.5v .. voltage would only be high enough push current into battery at a slow rate .

so yes 13.5v will charge up a lead acid battery but it will take much longer ... measuring resting voltage after sitting overnight reveals the state of charge. if your lead acid battery measures 12.8v range after resting overnight, then cranks over your motorcycle strong. odds are your battery is good.

if after charging up your lead acid battery to full .. then after resting overnight your battery measures 11.2v ... your battery needs to be replaced. resting state of charge voltage followed by a load test is just another indicator and very useful to determine if your battery is toast.

it's fine to use a cheap $15 meter if that's the type tools you want to use .. but make sure it's checked against a known to be accurate meter. it's not by accident Fluke meters are the standard. Flukes are extremely accurate and repeatable. have never like Snap-on meters.

[supershaft]

Almost all 12 volt systems obviously does not include our airheads. I am just reporting what I have seen time and time again. I am not reporting how things should be if the world was perfect. Handy info IMO since most of us here are working on our bikes.

$15 meter? I have never seen one read wrong compared with Flukes and whatnot. I don't care for Snap-On meters either although mine doesn't do anything worse than the Flukes I have compared it too. Some things I think my Radio Shack meter does better and somethings it doesn't do at all.

[Taverner]

Thanks for the tips everyone. I started charging it on the medium charger last night, but then I think I read something in the battery FAQ that AGM batteries require their own special amperage profile for medium charges. Anyway, I was really confused so just decided to trickle charge it at 2 amps overnight. Read 12.7 volts in the morning and started the bike up.

Now I just need to figure out why the bike is dying when idling even when it's warmed up and choke is open. I'll try to get some local help with that one.

Thanks again!

[trabbart]

i work with batterys as my job is repair of electrical wheelchairs,
your battery is bad, i have seen that a lot that the charger gives a full battery but it is in fact damaged. you just need a new battery. 11v is also an indicator, its to low, when starting it will drop to 9 or maby even lower,